A new, distressing sight.

[MeargleSchmeargl]

I've heard of situations like this. This is the first time I've seen it in my feed:

 

https://www.audubon.org/news/paleontology-and-private-fossil-collecting-can-be-odds-hills-wyoming

[ynot]

They failed to mention that most of the new discoveries would not have happened if the private quarries were not digging them up. Or the millions of fish that are found and sold to finance the whole industry, and what this does to further paleontology.

[Yvie]

Leave it all in place and who benefits??NO-one

[Fruitbat]

I'm have to agree with ynot and Yvie.  Personally, I'm getting tired of hearing about 'preserving the fossils for posterity and scientific study'.  Museums and universities do NOT have the staffs or the funds to explore every fossil exposure, so there are untold numbers of scientifically significant (and scientifically insignificant) fossils that are reduced to powder by the elements every day.  What is more useful...a fossil in a private collection or one that will never be seen nor studied because of the whims of nature?  Heck...back in the days of the infamous Cope/Marsh bone wars, 'professional' paleontologists actually destroyed dinosaur bones so that their competitors wouldn't be able to excavate them...and I can't even begin to count all of the 'exploded' turtles and mammal remains I encountered back in the days when I wandered the White River badlands.  Those fossils never made it to a museum or university either...and, to be honest, I can't recall a time when I ran into a 'professional' paleontologist out in the field.

 

-Joe

[Fossildude19]

Topic moved to Fossil News. 

 

[Kane]

On 4/18/2018 at 4:32 PM, Fruitbat said:

I'm have to agree with ynot and Yvie.  Personally, I'm getting tired of hearing about 'preserving the fossils for posterity and scientific study'.  Museums and universities do NOT have the staffs or the funds to explore every fossil exposure, so there are untold numbers of scientifically significant (and scientifically insignificant) fossils that are reduced to powder by the elements every day.  What is more useful...a fossil in a private collection or one that will never be seen nor studied because of the whims of nature?  Heck...back in the days of the infamous Cope/Marsh bone wars, 'professional' paleontologists actually destroyed dinosaur bones so that their competitors wouldn't be able to excavate them...and I can't even begin to count all of the 'exploded' turtles and mammal remains I encountered back in the days when I wandered the White River badlands.  Those fossils never made it to a museum or university either...and, to be honest, I can't recall a time when I ran into a 'professional' paleontologist out in the field.

 

-Joe

Well said, Joe. The history of paleontology is entwined with the efforts of amateur collectors. As long as they are ethical the relationship can be a productive one for all parties. Chronic underfunding is a serious issue for a lot of universities, and so having more "eyes and hands" in the field can be very helpful. I've been fortunate to know amateur collectors who make their living on collecting and preparing finds, while not getting greedy with a site, or sabotage it for other collectors. Some collectors I know who collect fossils are also in close contact with institutions and have always been diligent in handing over finds that may be a new species, operating as good partners to science.  

[Heteromorph]

Exactly! We must weigh the cost and benefits. Amateur fossil collectors are the lifeblood of paleontology. While professionals are, of course, also indispensable to paleontology, they do not have the resources to do this much collecting. Without amateur collectors going out and doing most of the field work, where would science be? There are countless significant fossils discovered each year by everyday people who have educated themselves, found the sites, recognized the significance of the finds, and have contacted the appropriate professionals for further study and description. As @Kane said, many involed in selling fossils are responsible and keep in touch with professionals. While yes, some people are just in it for the money and would happily sell a significant find off to the highest bidder to be lost to science, the cost of keeping those many people who are responsible from using the means at there disposal to find more fossils outweighs the number of fossils saved by federalization. It may be that many fossils are used for someone's kitchen countertop, but is that not better than much fewer fossils being discovered and most left to weather until a professional comes? Sometimes it may be warranted to federalize these sorts of things, but many times it is just a means to gain more control. Whether they begin with good intentions or not, the outcomes are often worse than before. 

[Auspex]

Commercial collectors have been an important, integral, and beneficial part of the scientific progress made by Paleontology, from the very beginning.

This kind of click-bait 'journalism', foisting false outrage, is counter-productive to the science it claims to honor.

 

I am not blind to the fact that some commercial exploitation is destructive, but one should not use so broad a brush to vilify the despoilers.

[Fruitbat]

Unfortunately, the concept of amateur and commercial collectors as pillagers and despoilers without a sense of social conscience or responsibility is all too common among academicians and professionals.  All one has to do is read some of their diatribes for evidence of THAT!  You would think that they consider amateurs to be completely incapable of excavating, preparing and thoroughly documenting the specimens they find.  Granted...there are far too many folks who will indiscriminately attack a fossil without a clue as to what they are doing, but I'll wager that the vast majority of the 'unwashed (and untutored) masses' have as much appreciation for the fossils they encounter as any professional does.

 

-Joe

[jpc]

Here are my comments made in the comments section of the article...

 

I am a fan of Brian's writing, but I will say that in this case he forgot to mention that Lance Grande's employer recently bought a large collection of Green River birds form one of the commercial quarriers. This, I believe, is where Cyrilavis came from. That collection is now being studied by Dan Ksepska and Julia Clarke. Without the commercial operators, these fossils would never even have seen the light of day. Yes, some make it into private hands, but some also make it into scientific hands. Grande is doing a lot to keep a healthy working relationship between the Field Museum and some of the commercial guys. A tip of the hat to Lance. Additionally, it is not just the 18 inch layer, but also the split fish layer, that contains bird fossils.

 

Having said all of that, I will also say that the ridiculous prices some of these fossils are getting has basically prevented the museum I work for from opening up our own quarry on private land. But that is another story for another day.

[Auspex]

2 hours ago, Fruitbat said:

Unfortunately, the concept of amateur and commercial collectors as pillagers and despoilers without a sense of social conscience or responsibility is all too common among academicians and professionals.

The Fossil Forum, by encouraging two-way pro-am cooperation, has moved the needle on this.
No one could peruse our pages and think we're all just a bunch of treasure hunters.
We set, and cite, examples of the contribution that amateurs make to science!
Our publishing standards are stricter than many on-line forums, so that we will be taken seriously, and our community (all of YOU!) delivers.

[piranha]

2 hours ago, jpc said:

...Grande is doing a lot to keep a healthy working relationship between the Field Museum and some of the commercial guys. A tip of the hat to Lance...

 

 

FMNH has very deep pockets... just ask Sue!  

[Fruitbat]

I agree wholeheartedly with Auspex.  The Fossil Forum stands out as a shining example of how amateurs and professionals can co-operate when the standards are set high and the participants are willing to abide by those standards.  That's why it is so essential that we maintain our reputation and continue to strive for excellence!

 

-Joe

[jpc]

16 hours ago, piranha said:

 

 

FMNH has very deep pockets... just ask Sue!  

Sorta... they friends with deep pockets.. Sue was sponsored by McDonald's (very deep) and Disney (possibly even deeper)  

[piranha]

6 minutes ago, jpc said:

Sorta... they friends with deep pockets.. Sue was sponsored by McDonald's (very deep) and Disney (possibly even deeper)  

 

 

They all split the cost but FMNH keeps the fossil.  The corporate sponsors only get casting rights and other marketing perks.

Over the years FMNH has shelled out huge money for Green River vertebrates.  I know firsthand from one of their suppliers. 

 

 

[jpc]

4 hours ago, piranha said:

 

 

They all split the cost but FMNH keeps the fossil.  The corporate sponsors only get casting rights and other marketing perks.

Over the years FMNH has shelled out huge money for Green River vertebrates.  I know firsthand from one of their suppliers. 

 

 

Yeah, this is true.  And I know they paid a lot for the 21 or so birds they bought from one of the fish guys.  

[Wrangellian]

And I can't even get a tax receipt for my fossil donations to the provincial museum without them complaining that it's a hassle for them to do!