Apatosaurus sp.

[Jaimin013]

Hi All,

 

This tooth is being advertised as Apatosaurus sp. details below, what do you think of the overall quality of the specimens? I am thinking of waiting it out until I find a nicer one with less filling fractures but want your opinions! It seems as though both of these are overpriced considering the quality of the teeth. Although the first tooth has size going for it, I like second!

 

Apatosaurus sp.
Morrison Formation
Upper Jurassic
Moffat County, Colorado

 

Tooth 1 (going for 350 dollars) - 4.5 cm. Shaft is fractured from burial (see slightly disjointed segments). Only restoration is along these natural fractures.

 

Tooth 2 (going for 1000 dollars) : little restoration and only mainly filling of natural fractures. 6.5 cm long 

 

[Troodon]

I would not consider the first tooth since its missing an unknown amount of the tip. The second tooth is in better shape but a bit pricy and not common.  Nice sauropod teeth from the Morisson are not cheap.

The next question that needs to be addressed is the ID which I have a difficult problem with Diplodocidae since they are all peg type teeth.   The subfamily Apatosaurinae's we have two genus Apatosaurus and Brontosaurus which I doubt you can distinguish between their teeth.   Then there are the Diplodocinae's which includes Diplodocus and Barosaurus.  The dealer PaleoGallery put this comparison together to clarify the distinction but there is lots of variations in teeth of the.   Your tooth looks more like a Diplodocinae but I'm not sure.

 

 

Bunch of Apatosaurus teeth 

 

Diplodocid Tooth

 

 

[Jaimin013]

Thanks @Troodon This is extremely useful information so thank you! The seller also mentioned that the second tooth was collected in close association with other Apatosaurus skull material so if I were to trust the seller it could be Apatosaurus sp. but as you mention its hard to determine as it wasn't found on part of a skull.

 

I like the second tooth as I have been looking for a Diplodocinae tooth but I think the price is way too high (although I know that this type of tooth is not common and often goes for high prices) so will hold off until I find something cheaper. Silly question but do you think I could find something cheaper?

 

The tooth is about 2.5 inches long so I guess that's why it is more expensive and perhaps as the seller has advertised it as a Apatosaurus sp. he has bumped up the price. I think the mystery of not being certain what it is for this particular tooth is cool! What sort of ID would you put on it? Diplodocus sp. (or Diplodocinae indet., or Barosaurus) as not sure on ID?

[Troodon]

If the second tooth was indeed found with a skull that is the best method for an ID and nice, if it was?.   You never see Apatosaurus teeth for sale so just cannot comment on price.   Try asking Terry, those are her teeth in the picture above part of a skull.  Regarding Diplo teeth they more commonly available and priced all over the place based on size and condition.  You just need to search until youre happy.   I honestly think most peg teeth from the Morrison are sold as Diplodocus since they ard isolated finds 

Diplodocinae indet is probably the more technically accurate ID but I just use Diplodocus sp.

[Troodon]

Check out the chompers on the Diplodocus top and Apatosaurus bottom.

[Jaimin013]

7 hours ago, Troodon said:

If the second tooth was indeed found with a skull that is the best method for an ID and nice, if it was?.   You never see Apatosaurus teeth for sale so just cannot comment on price.   Try asking Terry, those are her teeth in the picture above part of a skull.  Regarding Diplo teeth they more commonly available and priced all over the place based on size and condition.  You just need to search until youre happy.   I honestly think most peg teeth from the Morrison are sold as Diplodocus since they ard isolated finds 

Diplodocinae indet is probably the more technically accurate ID but I just use Diplodocus sp.

Thanks, ill ask! 

[Jaimin013]

11 hours ago, Troodon said:

Check out the chompers on the Diplodocus top and Apatosaurus bottom.

Literally indistinguishable however now looking at the photo of the one the seller is selling I'm leaning more towards Apatosaurus due to how the surface of the tooth appears. Obviously this likely depends on where it is found but i'll ask her for verification as I am no expert. The tooth also has more of an almond shape. I believe that the people selling this tooth do a lot of the collecting themselves and are and have collected in the past a Apatosaurus claw, femur and caudal vertebrae. Found full size images of the same photos.

 

 

[hxmendoza]

On 5/4/2018 at 6:04 PM, Troodon said:

I would not consider the first tooth since its missing an unknown amount of the tip. The second tooth is in better shape but a bit pricy and not common.  Nice sauropod teeth from the Morisson are not cheap.

The next question that needs to be addressed is the ID which I have a difficult problem with Diplodocidae since they are all peg type teeth.   The subfamily Apatosaurinae's we have two genus Apatosaurus and Brontosaurus which I doubt you can distinguish between their teeth.   Then there are the Diplodocinae's which includes Diplodocus and Barosaurus.  The dealer PaleoGallery put this comparison together to clarify the distinction but there is lots of variations in teeth of the.   Your tooth looks more like a Diplodocinae but I'm not sure.

 

 

Bunch of Apatosaurus teeth 

 

Diplodocid Tooth

 

 

 

One possible distinguishing trait for Apatosaurus teeth that I’ve noticed as being quite discernible is the presence of faceting, or striae along the length of the lower shaft. If you look at the photo from Paleogallery, you see them on “Junior” and the Apatosaurus tooth being held in fingers. In the Apatosaurus tooth group photo you’ll note that most all the teeth are lancet shaped and also show the faceting, striae, ridges, whatever one wants to call them, on the tooth shafts and roots. 

 

@Troodon, has posted pics of the partial jaw segments that he owns (I believe it’s his Morrison Sauropods post) and you can very easily see these two features on the teeth. Diplodocus teeth do not seem to show these features. I have yet to see these on an Diplodocus teeth.

 

I believe his teeth are from the Red Canyon Ranch. Don Pfister, the current owner of Paleo Gallery, has sent me photos of their Apatosaurus tooth bearing parts. Every one of them show the faceting. 

 

I’m still baffled as to why these features have not been noted by any paleontologists in any scientific paper. 

 

Hope this helps.

[Troodon]

5 hours ago, hxmendoza said:

 

One possible distinguishing trait for Apatosaurus teeth that I’ve noticed as being quite discernible is the presence of faceting, or striae oblong the length of the lower shaft. If you look at the photo from Paleogallery, you see them on “Junior” and the Apatosaurus tooth being held in fingers. In the Apatosaurus tooth group photo you’ll note that most all the teeth are lancet shaped and also show the faceting, striae, ridges, whatever one wants to call them, on the tooth shafts and roots. 

 

@Troodon, as posted pics of the partial jaw segments that he owns (I believe it’s his Morrison Sauropods post) and you can very easily see these two features on the teeth. Diplodocus teeth do not seem to show these features. I have yet to see these on an Diplodocus teeth.

 

I believe his teeth are from the Red Canyon Ranch. Don Pfister, the current owner of Paleo Gallery, has sent me photos of their Apatosaurus tooth bearing parts. Every one of them show the facetting. 

 

I’m still baffled as to why these features have not been noted by any paleontologists in any scientific paper. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

Agreed I do see those features but did not comment on them because they were not visible on the Apatosaurus skull shown above which floored me.  Like you said no publications available..  All of the teeth images I show and the tooth comparisons also came from Paleo Gallery.

[hxmendoza]

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

Agreed I do see those features but did not comment on them because they were not visible on the Apatosaurus skull shown above which floored me.  Like you said no publications available..  All of the teeth images I show and the tooth comparisons also came from Paleo Gallery.

 

The Cincinatti Apatosaurus skull picture is hi res. But the teeth aren’t really in the correct focal plane compared to the rest of the skull. 

When I blow it up, though not easy to see, I personally can see hints of the same striae, fluting, faceting on some of the teeth. Just wish there was a good head on and crisp view of the teeth on that particular skull. 

 

Hopefully a qualified Paleontologist will one day pay closer attention to trying to figure out any tooth morphology differences and publish their observations and help resolve the issue. 

 

Thanks for sharing the pics!

[hxmendoza]

I’ve marked where I believe this feature is noteable on the out of focus teeth of the Cincinnati Apatosaurus skull below:

[Troodon]

See those grooves but not as deep as Pfisters teeth.  The biggest feature I was concerned with is that all of Pfisters teeth were not oval but more trapezoid like and those looked more round or oval like a Diplo.  Could be the angle of view.   Points out why we need to find a publication that describes these teeth if it exists.

[hxmendoza]

Maybe the prominence of the grooves is variable. Or maybe it diminishes through ontogeny. It would be interesting to find out how old an individual the Cincinnati specimen is. 

So many unanswered questions...

:-/

[Jaimin013]

Thank you so much @hxmendozathis is extremely useful information to know. The tooth teeth that I have posted don't seem to match what you are saying so not sure if its an apatosaurus tooth. I've asked someone at PG and will see what they think.

[hxmendoza]

4 hours ago, Jaimin013 said:

Thank you so much @hxmendozathis is extremely useful information to know. The tooth teeth that I have posted don't seem to match what you are saying so not sure if its an apatosaurus tooth. I've asked someone at PG and will see what they think.

 

Youre welcome. Hopefully you’ll get your tooth figured out. 

[hxmendoza]

4 hours ago, Jaimin013 said:

Thank you so much @hxmendozathis is extremely useful information to know. The tooth teeth that I have posted don't seem to match what you are saying so not sure if its an apatosaurus tooth. I've asked someone at PG and will see what they think.

 

@Jaimin013, I took the liberty of playing with the photos of your diplodocid tooth. After lightening and other adjustments, I would agree that there is no evidence of the possible Apatosaurus traits on your tooth.

 

All I see is the normal textured enamel seen in all diplodocid teeth.

 

[doushantuo]

 

[hxmendoza]

8 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

 

 

Whays the citation for this paper?

[doushantuo]

?The one on the right forms part of a thesis i posted a long while back

Left one is from Saegusa,I think(ABAS/2011)

[Jaimin013]

11 hours ago, hxmendoza said:

 

@Jaimin013, I took the liberty of playing with the photos of your diplodocid tooth. After lightening and other adjustments, I would agree that there is no evidence of the possible Apatosaurus traits on your tooth.

 

All I see is the normal textured enamel seen in all diplodocid teeth.

 

Ok thanks for letting me know and confirmation @hxmendoza. Can you do something similar to the photos of the second tooth that posted (No. 31) and brightness up or would you need closer pics? Thanks!

[Troodon]

8 hours ago, hxmendoza said:

 

Whays the citation for this paper?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.diva-portal.se/smash/get/diva2:749987/FULLTEXT01.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs5O3Cv_PaAhUG4mMKHeuSASoQFjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1PtctTN8QeYYcoP-MJdkrQ

[hxmendoza]

Thank you @Troodon!

[hxmendoza]

6 hours ago, Jaimin013 said:

Ok thanks for letting me know and confirmation. Can you do something similar to the photos of the second tooth that posted (No. 31) or would you need closer pics? Thanks!

 

My personal opinion is that it is not Apatosaurus. I modified those pics too. 

[Jaimin013]

2 minutes ago, hxmendoza said:

My personal opinion is that it is not Apatosaurus. I modified those pics too. 

 

Thanks so much and I really value your opinion on these teeth. Very helpful!

[Jaimin013]

Response from Terry about the second tooth that I have posted in this post and I will wait to see what they come back with:

 

"The Fossil Ave tooth is interesting. We found a young Sauropod in 2008, nickname “Junior,” which we thought might be Apatosaurus. Its teeth were not quite Apato, but not quite Diplo. I showed pix to the head vertebrate paleontologist at the Carnegie Museum, who shared them with other Sauropod experts. The consensus: Junior is most likely (like, 99% certain) Apatosaurus, with teeth that may demonstrate changing tooth morphology as a dinosaur matures. Other species identifiers, like the hip bones, are still unprepped. The Fossil Ave tooth reminds me of Junior’s teeth – similar shape and surface texture, but larger. I’m going to share the Fossil Ave link with my partner to see what he says. He has prepped a lot of Diplodocid teeth!"

 

I also asked them if they had any Apatosaurus teeth or Torvosaurus teeth in stock but they said they only sell items found at our digsite and hope to be lucky again this summer!