Bird fossil from Liaoning

[Crazyhen]

Any idea what species are these two specimens of bird fossil? And if they are genuine?  They are from Liaoning of China.

[ynot]

@Auspex, should be able to help.

[Auspex]

Real fossil birds may not be exported from China under penalties up to and including death, but there are no such restrictions on 'facsimiles'.

Therefore, the latter floods the market, while the former are practically non-existent.

 

Take a look at the details; they should be unambiguous: This is what real looks like.

[FossilSniper]

Auspex got it. 
-------------------------------------------
There is a very slim chance that the bird fossil is real; and if it is real, the huge demand for it would cause its price to be through the roof.

If it is a real bird fossil, it would have been exported out of China before the exportation regulation had taken effect- and most fossils like these have already been purchased by hungry collectors and museums.

Furthermore, it seems to be lacking many bone structures and wing patterns found in real fossilized birds from China. 




Remember that a fossil in two halves of a split matrix will never be perfect on both sides- some pieces will be stuck to one side while there is an impression on the other side.

Both sides will not be perfect fossil. The fossil also usually has some 3D shape to its fossilized bone material.

I would not consider the questioned fossil real and would stay away unless the seller is able to identify more specifics and give us more detailed images. Maybe it was exported out of China before the law took effect.


It indeed looks like quite a shady piece to me.

Here is a short page to further explain what to look out for in fakes like these:
https://www.paleodirect.com/fake-chinese-fossils-fossil-forgery-from-china/

[piranha]

6 hours ago, Crazyhen said:

Any idea what species are these two specimens of bird fossil? And if they are genuine?  They are from Liaoning of China.

  

 

4 hours ago, Auspex said:

Take a look at the details; they should be unambiguous: This is what real looks like.

 

 

Perfect textbook specimens are rare.  The OP is the typical preservation of the Yixian birds.  

The one on the right may have a composited skull, but both appear to be authentic fossils.

[Auspex]

One wonders, then, and assuming that these are for sale here, how they got out of China, which bans their export.

Seriously, I have seen some pretty convincing 'reproductions' that don't pass muster under the loupe. I recommend caution.

[piranha]

52 minutes ago, Auspex said:

One wonders, then, and assuming that these are for sale here, how they got out of China, which bans their export.

Seriously, I have seen some pretty convincing 'reproductions' that don't pass muster under the loupe. I recommend caution.

 

 

The ratio of repair / restoration or complete fabrication is easily detected under UV light and a 10x loupe.  I attended a number of Denver and Tucson shows from the late 90's up until 2007.  There were plenty of pre-ban examples to purchase.  Many legitimate specimens are still floating around in private collections that occasionally come up for sale.  There are probably just as many that have been illegally exported.  

[Auspex]

What percentage of those being offered for sale would you estimate to be genuine?

[piranha]

1 minute ago, Auspex said:

What percentage of those being offered for sale would you estimate to be genuine?

 

 

It has been a few years since I followed the Chinese birds, so I could not offer any reliable estimate of the current marketplace.

[Auspex]

It is true that the ash-like matrix typical of the most productive bird sites there average a low-grade of preservation, but this just makes it easier to copy.

Without using a blacklight and a loupe, I would not buy one.

[piranha]

1 minute ago, Auspex said:

...Without using a blacklight and a loupe, I would not buy one...

 

 

Yes, that should be standard operating procedure for any pricey fossils that have a known history of forgery.  It also helps to deal with a knowledgeable / reputable seller that has a solid history of happy customers.  If the acquisition is from photos only, avoid any seller that does not offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee and an unconditional return policy.  Ultimately, the buyer should take full responsibility to be thoroughly educated before making this type of purchase.

[Crazyhen]

3 hours ago, Auspex said:

One wonders, then, and assuming that these are for sale here, how they got out of China, which bans their export.

Seriously, I have seen some pretty convincing 'reproductions' that don't pass muster under the loupe. I recommend caution.

Yes, there is a ban on export/import of fossils in China.  But the bird fossils are in China and they are being offered for sale within China, though sale of protected fossils privately is strictly speaking not allowed even within the country.

[Spongy Joe]

I don't know about the Jehol material so much, but Chengjiang and Guanshan fossils are still being exported in number, despite the risks to the smuggler. I know of one dealer on online, for example, who has genuine Chengjiang fossils, newly experted, for sale. When I realised what was going on I pointed out the legislation to him, but he's still happy for his contact to take the risk.

 

For relatively small blocks, it would be very easy; I've taken fossils out of the country many times (entirely legally, with paperwork..!), but no-one has ever checked them. I assume that with a bigger slab of rock it would be harder, but still... I suspect the authorities rely to some extent on the deterrent effect of the extreme penalties for protected sites.

[-Andy-]

I wonder about the reverse scenario where you go to China with legally-purchased dinosaur fossils, but when you are leaving China, the customs assume you are smuggling them out. (I could swear I've read a similar story where someone bought Moroccan shark teeth, went to Russia for a holiday, then had them seized when the Russian customs thought he was smuggling Russian fossils out)

 

Or when you are in China and buy a great replica fossil, but when you are leaving, the customs mistake it for a real fossil and assume you are smuggling it out.

[Crazyhen]

12 hours ago, -Andy- said:

I wonder about the reverse scenario where you go to China with legally-purchased dinosaur fossils, but when you are leaving China, the customs assume you are smuggling them out. (I could swear I've read a similar story where someone bought Moroccan shark teeth, went to Russia for a holiday, then had them seized when the Russian customs thought he was smuggling Russian fossils out)

 

Or when you are in China and buy a great replica fossil, but when you are leaving, the customs mistake it for a real fossil and assume you are smuggling it out.

I understand that the restriction on importing fossil to China is very strict.  That's why most of the Madagascar fossils imported into China are polished ones (then they are considered as craftworks, raw ones are not allowed).  And Andy is right, if you bring out any fossil that you brought in from somewhere else, it is possible that the customs assume you are smuggling it out.  For replica, you need to provide proof from the authority that it is a replica.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

The coloring and granulation of the matrix rock is unmistakable, so it really comes from the Yixian Formation, in Liaoning Province in China. The problem here is the supposed fossils, where some parts look painted, other parts appear carved, and other composite parts. It is not because a fossil is from Liaoning that it means that it must be flat and without any detail. Quite the opposite! Liaoning's bird fossils when they are legitimate, even though they are in poor condition, you can still identify any detail in the bony condition, and unfortunately I can not see bony details on the supposed birds you posted here, my dear friend @Crazyhen. For comparison, I posted down here, as it should look like a legitimate bird fossil from the Yixian Formation, Lingyuan, Liaoning Province, China.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

49 minutes ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

The coloring and granulation of the matrix rock is unmistakable, so it really comes from the Yixian Formation, in Liaoning Province in China. The problem here is the supposed fossils, where some parts look painted, other parts appear carved, and other composite parts. It is not because a fossil is from Liaoning that it means that it must be flat and without any detail. Quite the opposite! Liaoning's bird fossils when they are legitimate, even though they are in poor condition, you can still identify any detail in the bony condition, and unfortunately I can not see bony details on the supposed birds you posted here, my dear friend @Crazyhen. For comparison, I posted down here, as it should look like a legitimate bird fossil from the Yixian Formation, Lingyuan, Liaoning Province, China.

 

 

That's a beauty! 

I see what you mean about the raised details. 

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

36 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

That's a beauty! 

I see what you mean about the raised details. 

 

Oh! Is you? Nice hat , my big and dear friend! Huge hug!

Note: Apparently the rumors here within the TFF are true ... You never sleep!

 

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

2 hours ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

Oh! Is you? Nice hat , my big and dear friend! Huge hug!

Note: Apparently the rumors here within the TFF are true ... You never sleep!

 

 

Not much sleep for me, no. 

Tidgy does my sleeping for me

 

Hugs back! 

[piranha]

14 hours ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

It is not because a fossil is from Liaoning that it means that it must be flat and without any detail. Quite the opposite! Liaoning's bird fossils when they are legitimate, even though they are in poor condition, you can still identify any detail in the bony condition, and unfortunately I can not see bony details on the supposed birds you posted here...

 

If you look closely the posted fossils are not flat, in fact they do have 3D relief.  Additionally, the specimen you posted for comparison was more skillfully prepared to a higher level of detail.  The comparison is apples and oranges, high grade versus low grade. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 For comparison, I posted down here, as it should look like a legitimate bird fossil from the Yixian Formation...

 

Btw, here is another example of what a legitimate bird fossil from the Yixian Formation looks like. 

Under magnification with a loupe, this Liaoxiornis delicatus has some of the tiny teeth preserved.