Spinosaurus jaw?

[InvestableCards]

Hi all. I have a thread in another section of the forum about this, but figured this may also be a relevant place to make a post. I've had some interesting and helpful opinions so far, but would like more if possible to help decide it and educate myself and maybe others in the process! 

 

I'm looking to purchase a piece of what is labelled as Spinosaurus jaw. I've found what appears to be a small section, being sold by an apparently reputable business. I know from my own research that crocodile jaws are often sold as Spinosaurus jaws, but there are some stark differences between the two in anatomy and appearance. Below are some photos of the jaw, what do you think? Spinosaurus or Crocodile? 

 

I know that the teeth are added to the piece, as with virtually all Spino jaws I've seen. Generally it's only unerupted teeth that are present when found if at all. 

 

All opinions are respected, please provide some reasoning for either way so that we can educate everyone in the process. 

 

[InvestableCards]

More photos

[Miocene_Mason]

I’m getting some deja vu....

Edit: read the beginning to fast. I didn’t see how the other turned out, but if there were opinions offered there it is unlikely you’ll get much more the second time.

[-Andy-]

EDIT: After reading the replies, I agree it's not a Spino

 

Yes, I am getting strange feelings too, like I've seen this before.

[InvestableCards]

2 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

I’m getting some deja vu....

Edit: read the beginning to fast. I didn’t see how the other turned out, but if there were opinions offered there it is unlikely you’ll get much more the second time.

I'm looking to get more opinions from more people, rather than to get different opinions from the same people.

 

No one was overly sure, so therefore I'd like to keep it open until I get more input. Also there's many more people on here that I feel may wish to give their 2 cents. 

[Miocene_Mason]

Okay then, here’s one opinion you definitely want when it comes to morrocan dinosaurs: @LordTrilobite 

[InvestableCards]

5 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

Okay then, here’s one opinion you definitely want when it comes to morrocan dinosaurs: @LordTrilobite 

Thanks for the tag, I think LordTrilobite commented on my other thread and gave an opinion. It was good, he gave some reasoning for his opinion. 

 

I've also private messaged a couple of other people that I know have a solid knowledge on this particular type of fossil, but it's open for anyone to give an opinion. 

[Bone guy]

I'll throw in my two cents. It looks like a spinosaurus jaw with spinosaurus teeth composited in. That's actually a common thing because these jaws are usually found with no teeth. Honestly it makes the jaw looks much better without hurting it, so it's a win win! 

[InvestableCards]

1 minute ago, Bone guy said:

I'll throw in my two cents. It looks like a spinosaurus jaw with spinosaurus teeth composited in. That's actually a common thing because these jaws are usually found with no teeth. Honestly it makes the jaw looks much better without hurting it, so it's a win win! 

Thanks for your opinion! The composited teeth don't bother me, I'm only concerned with whether the jaw piece is from a Spinosaurus or not. 

[LordTrilobite]

Honestly I don't see the need in this thread. It just seems to be confusing people when the same fossil is posted in different threads with the same purpose. So I'll just link to the other thread. I think all that needed to be said was said there. Likely composite, possibly some type of croc as the morphology is not completely consistent with Spinosaurus. Not worth the risk, pass on this one.

 

[Haravex]

Ok my opinion, teeth are without a doubt not natural as in not found in the jaw, why? Well the the have a preservation I would likely assume to be from the Aoufous formation which has a lot more clay and rich iron rocks giving a darker coloration, and the jaw looks to be from the Ifezouane formation lighter sands conglomerates etc.. 

 

Now the jaw itself, I has water wear on the outer side as seen by the loss of some of the cortex and thus showing the trabecular bone structure, however I feel that even with this the impression of a crocodile rough pitting on the surface. The inner side of the jaw also seems to have had some sort of fill perhaps given the common smudge like appearance of matrix and super glue, however this could be just to crack fill and might not be completely missing. And finally as stated by LT (which you really should take his advice when it comes to this as he has a  lot more experience than I have) the lip on the inside of the jaw while present is not very defined given also the size I don't see this being a part of a spinosauridae (there are two types remember) jaw and would weigh in favor of crocodile to 90 percent confidence.

 

At the end of the day it is your decision, and no matter how many people tell you what they think you always have to make this for yourself and ask your self with a piece like this is it worth the risk.

[InvestableCards]

8 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

Honestly I don't see the need in this thread. It just seems to be confusing people when the same fossil is posted in different threads with the same purpose. So I'll just link to the other thread. I think all that needed to be said was said there. Likely composite, possibly some type of croc as the morphology is not completely consistent with Spinosaurus. Not worth the risk, pass on this one.

 

Don't get me wrong, I value your opinion and am grateful for you to take the time to have a look for me. People here clearly respect your knowledge so that goes without being said. I just thought it would be a good idea to post the thread to this part of the forum instead, as it may have been in the wrong place before. I was trying to establish the ID for whether this is Spino or Croc, rather than if the fossil is fake. It's a big learning process for me so I'm trying to get as many opinions as possible, as someone else may be able to point something else out - all stuff I can keep in my memory for future, it also may help other people looking for a similar fossil. Again, thanks very much! I'm going to listen to what you've said and take that with me, also I won't take the risk and buy this. 

[InvestableCards]

1 hour ago, Haravex said:

Ok my opinion, teeth are without a doubt not natural as in not found in the jaw, why? Well the the have a preservation I would likely assume to be from the Aoufous formation which has a lot more clay and rich iron rocks giving a darker coloration, and the jaw looks to be from the Ifezouane formation lighter sands conglomerates etc.. 

 

Now the jaw itself, I has water wear on the outer side as seen by the loss of some of the cortex and thus showing the trabecular bone structure, however I feel that even with this the impression of a crocodile rough pitting on the surface. The inner side of the jaw also seems to have had some sort of fill perhaps given the common smudge like appearance of matrix and super glue, however this could be just to crack fill and might not be completely missing. And finally as stated by LT (which you really should take his advice when it comes to this as he has a  lot more experience than I have) the lip on the inside of the jaw while present is not very defined given also the size I don't see this being a part of a spinosauridae (there are two types remember) jaw and would weigh in favor of crocodile to 90 percent confidence.

 

At the end of the day it is your decision, and no matter how many people tell you what they think you always have to make this for yourself and ask your self with a piece like this is it worth the risk.

Thanks for the opinion, I've learnt something new here. I'm certainly not going to take the risk without other opinions backing it, as I'm sure that you all know more than me about it. It's not something I'm familiar with, which was why I've been asking for opinions in the first place.

 

It wasn't my intention to not believe anyone who's already commented, everything has been taken onboard - I just want to hear as much as possible so that I can learn more! I might have to PM some of you if that's OK to clarify a few things, so that I have a better idea going forwards. 

[paulyb135]

This isn’t my area of expertise in the slightest so my opinion may be in vain however i do agree that this looks a bit shady and I’d personally avoid unless of course the price is an absolute bargain and worth it despite the area of doubt 

[doushantuo]

fine sculpture on SPinosaurid teeth from Morocco

 

From:

Hasegawa_et_al_2010_Spinosaurus_fine_sculptures.pdf

[LordTrilobite]

15 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

fine sculpture on SPinosaurid teeth from Morocco

Indeed. To be even more specific though, those teeth without serrations on the carinae/cutting edges are specific to the subfamily Spinosaurinae. All known Baryonychinae have small serrations on their teeth.

 

2 hours ago, InvestableCards said:

Don't get me wrong, I value your opinion and am grateful for you to take the time to have a look for me. People here clearly respect your knowledge so that goes without being said. I just thought it would be a good idea to post the thread to this part of the forum instead, as it may have been in the wrong place before. I was trying to establish the ID for whether this is Spino or Croc, rather than if the fossil is fake. It's a big learning process for me so I'm trying to get as many opinions as possible, as someone else may be able to point something else out - all stuff I can keep in my memory for future, it also may help other people looking for a similar fossil. Again, thanks very much! I'm going to listen to what you've said and take that with me, also I won't take the risk and buy this. 

Np man. Yeah the fossil is definitely not fake. It's a real jaw, with real teeth. But it's just likely a botched croc jaw with spino teeth.

Haravex also made some really good points, with the sediments of the different formations being different.

 

Not to start up the whole debate again. But there's one thing that to me, might point to the jaw possibly being Spinosaurid. The angle of the upper and lower edges of the jaw seems consistent with just behind the middle of a Spinosaurus jaw. The size of the teeth is not consistent with that, but composited teeth would explain that. To be clear, I do think this is likely croc. But I wouldn't completely rule out a younger Spinosaurid. Not a lot is known about ontogeny in Spinosaur jaws. So we do not know, but it might be possible that the labial ridge next to the teeth isn't as pronounced in younger Spinosaur specimens. But at this point we really do not know. And many of the features we can clearly see on this jaw fragment are often also present in crocodiles from the Kem Kem beds.