Scientifically "Wanted!"

[Spongy Joe]

It's great to see that this board is so active, and that there's such a good, positive atmosphere here for amateur-professional interaction. So, in that spirit, it seems that there's scope for a new permanent topic. There is a wealth of extraordinary fossils in the collections here, and we've seen the rewards that a good collaboration can bring in the gallery... and there are probably also a lot of palaeontologists, around the world, who would love something specific to work on that is a bit inaccessible for them. There may also be people working on monographs of particulalr groups from particular areas. Why not give them a place to advertise their needs?

 

There's also the issue of collectors/amateurs who have found something they feel ought to be described, but can't find anyone who wants to do it. A parallel thread showcasing available new fossils might also be a really good avenue to go down.

 

At the moment, the site probably isn't on the radar of most palaeontological researchers (including some of the amateur ones), but there are places like the Palaeonet listserver where this board could be brought to their attention. It could really start building some hefty bridges, if the idea takes off. I've certainly got a 'want' or two that I could throw in to begin with!
 

Is this a route the forum would like to go down, at least to try it? I'm happy to announce it on Palaeonet, if so!

[Wrangellian]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Let's see how the mods/admins feel about it...

[TqB]

I'm all for it, Joe. Much still happens behind the scenes, of course, as this sub-forum shows. 

 

[Fossildude19]

This was mentioned behind the scenes, a few days ago.   

This issue is already currently being discussed by the Mod/Admin team.  
 

That said, ... the Forum is always interested in furthering the relations between Professional Paleontologists/Researchers and the Amateur/Avocational Fossil Collectors.

 

 

[Spongy Joe]

5 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

This was mentioned behind the scenes, a few days ago.   

This issue is already currently being discussed by the Mod/Admin team.  
 

That said, ... the Forum is always interested in furthering the relations between Professional Paleontologists/Researchers and the Amateur/Avocational Fossil Collectors.

 

 

Hah! Oh well - in that case it must be a good idea!

Thanks for letting me know, Fossildude - will wait and see, but I'm happy to do a spot of promoting in professional circles, if it happens.

[Fossildude19]

2 hours ago, Spongy Joe said:

Hah! Oh well - in that case it must be a good idea!

Thanks for letting me know, Fossildude - will wait and see, but I'm happy to do a spot of promoting in professional circles, if it happens.

 

We'll let you know first, Joe. 

And please - call me Tim.  

Easier to type.

[JohnJ]

2 hours ago, Spongy Joe said:

Hah! Oh well - in that case it must be a good idea!

Thanks for letting me know, Fossildude - will wait and see, but I'm happy to do a spot of promoting in professional circles, if it happens.

@Spongy Joe Joe, building bridges between these two groups is a fundamental, ongoing mission of TFF.  Feel free to mention TFF in any professional networks.  Search engines and the network of contacts known to our membership have fostered years of collaborative projects, but there is always a need to expand this potential.  Doing so will continue to put the right people in touch with each other and make new or exceptional specimens available for the science.

 

As to "showcasing" potential new species, well, that happens on TFF via the topics members create in the ID and Member Collection forum's.  Using our Search box will 'set the table' for any researchers ready to 'pull up a chair'.  They are welcome to post their request and subject of their research in this topic or another.  

 

Thanks for your efforts. 

[Spongy Joe]

Thanks, Tim and John! Yes, it sounds like this is a well-established tradition here that I'm just starting to uncover the extent of... which is wonderful. I've been so impressed with the attitudes on here, on all sides, since finally joining up. I have a foot in both camps, and don't see any sharp boundaries between amateur and professional; there are completely untrained people publishing extensively in their free time, and there are professionals who barely publish at all, because their role is more teaching or admin-oriented. What's important is the subject itself; we're all doing it for the sheer joy of discovery, and having a forum like this is a catalyst for getting new knowledge across all the natural boundaries, including into the sometimes-aloof ivory towers (although sometimes somebody does need to bang on the doors a bit!). Kudos to the creators of this place, and I'll do my best to encourage the process where I can!

 

I'll post a request shortly, and see what happens!

 

[DPS Ammonite]

Thanks Joe for posting Scientifically "Wanted". It was I who asked the moderators/administrators to add a showcase of possibly new to science fossils using your idea. I really like your idea of adding a section to TFF where professionals can ask for fossils and paleontological info to help with their research. 

 

I am already a curator in the collections section. Maybe together we could select worthy fossils to add to a "new to science" collection to showcase fossils that might be interesting to researchers.

 

You would make for a good liaison between TFF and the professional paleontology community, even in an informal capacity. I enjoy asking questions from the professionals. I also would love to have more professionals peruse TFF and help us with our questions. You probably will have members asking you questions about their sponges now that you are our resident expert.

 

You might consider posting some informational articles about the Paleonet list serve site. I do not know how much of it is visible to non members. I did notice that there was a jobs board. I sure that some of our members would be interested in that.

 

Thanks,

John

 

 

 

 

[Spongy Joe]

So, let's try out a 'wanted' ad, and see what happens: well-preserved heteractinid sponges

 

Heteractinids (e.g. Astraeospongium, Eiffelia, Wewokella) are moderately well-known sponges with a skeleton made of unique spicules with (usually) six radiating rays in one plane. Here are some of Tarquin's, for reference:

 

The problem: we know very little about the composition of heteractinid sponge spicules. The assumption is that they were pretty much all made entirely of calcite (except for the Cambrian Eiffelia, which, crucially, seems to have had silica in the middle)... but in many cases, we just don't know. Over the next few years, Mrs. Spongy and I would love to start doing a survey of heteractinid spicule composition across a wide range of taxa (especially from the Cambrian and Ordovician), looking for any evidence for a silica layer, or other anomalies.

 

What we need: The sponges would need to be as well-preserved as possible, in terms of mineralogy, but completeness doesn't matter. Recrystallised calcite (the normal preservation style) might well be useless, but sometimes original structure is preserved in limestones too. In contrast, just the external moulds of spicules might be expected to be useless... unless this is different to all the other originally-calcite fossils in the same rock (trilobites, echinoderms, etc.). Context and comparisons with other fossils in the assemblage can be crucial, which is why it really needs to be material collected in person. Pyritised fossils, and even isolated spicules, can also be very revealing. Anything might be useful, to be honest (although most of it probably won't!).

   

So, if you have any heteractinid material that you've collected and would be interested in collaborating, drop me a line. Unexpected discoveries, or even definite results one way or the other, are definitely publishable. 

   

[Spongy Joe]

Thanks for that, John - all sounds good to me, but I can also appreciate there are advantages to keeping it all integrated organically into the forum. Let's see what happens!

 

(And yes, I've already failed to help much on a couple of sponge-related queries...! What is it they say about specialists? They know more and more about less and less until they know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing! )

[Tidgy's Dad]

Joe, have you seen this thread?

I should have alerted you to it before.

It may not be exactly the type of sponge you mean, but of interest anyway? 

[minnbuckeye]

If anyone is interested in this, I THINK I can collect quite a bit of the matrix containing the spicules. At least I remember there being plenty of matrix in the area we found the spicules in that had grossly similar structures. Just ask and I will try and provide. I just jokingly showed it to @GeschWhat, thinking it was nothing, but pretending it was a coprolite. Her microscope showed me that I was wrong!! 

Mike

[Spongy Joe]

Thanks, Adam and Mike!

 

First thing is that these are hexactins rather than heteractins (six rays in one plane, which is what I'm really after). However, there is an associated story here, the other way round: reports of calcite preservation of what should be siliceous spicules like hexacts. Normally it's just mineralogical replacement, but if those really are calcareous, free-standing in a porous matrix, and with axial canals... well, it's hard to understand the preservation! Will reply on the other thread as well.

[GeschWhat]

10 hours ago, minnbuckeye said:

If anyone is interested in this, I THINK I can collect quite a bit of the matrix containing the spicules. At least I remember there being plenty of matrix in the area we found the spicules in that had grossly similar structures. Just ask and I will try and provide. I just jokingly showed it to @GeschWhat, thinking it was nothing, but pretending it was a coprolite. Her microscope showed me that I was wrong!! 

Mike

I can send you what I have if you are interested. Just send me a PM with your info. If I remember right, Mike, these were not too far above (~ 6") the layer with the big trilo bits.

[LabRatKing]

I'm really new here, but am a biologist by trade and manage five laboratories at a small university. We work with a lot of citizen scientists and I am more than happy to help out with the concept yinze discussing.

[Ludwigia]

10 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

I'm really new here, but am a biologist by trade and manage five laboratories at a small university. We work with a lot of citizen scientists and I am more than happy to help out with the concept yinze discussing.

Sorry that this is a little off-topic, but this word "yinze" has started cropping up recently. What does it mean and where did it originate? The urban dictionaries didn't help much other than to tell me that catwoman used it instead of "awesome" in 2011.

[Randyw]

Labratking is the only one I’ve seen using it. originally I thought it was a misspelling but he’s used it at least once in all his comments so I’m not sure what it is now. He’s been using it on place of yours or you’re

[LabRatKing]

9 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

Sorry that this is a little off-topic, but this word "yinze" has started cropping up recently. What does it mean and where did it originate? The urban dictionaries didn't help much other than to tell me that catwoman used it instead of "awesome" in 2011.

 

7 hours ago, Randyw said:

Labratking is the only one I’ve seen using it. originally I thought it was a misspelling but he’s used it at least once in all his comments so I’m not sure what it is now. He’s been using it on place of yours or you’re

 Oh...haha...sorry....its a Pittsburgh Pennsylvania slang term. I didn't even realize I wrote it.

 

"yinze" is basically the western Pennsylvania word for "y'all", "yuns", and "youse"...in other words, you guys or you folks, etc. 

 

Sorry for the confusion....but I guess it is really obvious where I grew up at now...

[Wrangellian]

I thought it was something like that! Dialects are interesting.

[jdp]

On 7/6/2019 at 12:38 PM, LabRatKing said:

 

 Oh...haha...sorry....its a Pittsburgh Pennsylvania slang term. I didn't even realize I wrote it.

 

"yinze" is basically the western Pennsylvania word for "y'all", "yuns", and "youse"...in other words, you guys or you folks, etc. 

 

Sorry for the confusion....but I guess it is really obvious where I grew up at now...

As in "yinz guys go dahntahn n'at"

 

-Also a Yinzer

[LabRatKing]

On 7/7/2019 at 6:41 PM, jdp said:

As in "yinz guys go dahntahn n'at"

 

-Also a Yinzer

Or "Yinze djeetyet?"

[siteseer]

I remember going on a field trip to the Vulcan Mine with the Tampa Bay Fossil Club with paleontologist Roger Portell and a few students.  He asked if anyone found any starfish ossicles, he would appreciate any donations.  The average fossil collector at that site is looking for sea urchins with the slight possibility of a shark tooth.  I didn't find any ossicles but he was welcome to any I or anyone else found.  Some collectors are afraid paleontologists are going to want the prized fossil in their collection but they don't think about nearly all paleontologists being specialists.  They want weird little things like starfish ossicles, partial sponges, and two incomplete bones that go together.  Yeah, that stuff doesn't look good in a display case anyway so just give it to them.

 

Jess 

[jdp]

Well in some cases the prized fossil really is scientifically important. Collectors do prize rarity for a reason, whereas a really rare fossil specimen may also contain unique information about that species or group. One example of this are Mazon Creek amphibians and reptiles; there is a substantial diversity of these animals but most of this diversity is still in private collections which hinders access and research. However, these are also extremely rare and therefore some collectors don't want to donate these to research institutions and the research institutions generally do not have finances to purchase these fossils from the collector for their market value. It would be a lie to say that there are not places where there are tensions between scientists and collectors, but these points of tension are generally pretty rare. No reasonable scientist is going to claim that a large and perfect C. megalodon tooth needs to be donated immediately.

[Mike from North Queensland]

I would like to mention that by posting on this forum I have made contacts and have donated specimens specifically for research that I first enquired about in the fossil ID section.

So there are already researchers that contribute and use this forum to assist in there research. Living in Australia I have donated more material that I posted on an Australian site and made more contacts there but that is because of being Australian specific and the Forum not having the same numbers. None of the material that I have donated for research were what I would describe as large showy display pieces but rather the smaller unusual specimens that are not normally collected due to size but the weekend collector.