GeschWhat Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 While scanning some of the fossil plates I found hunting with @Bev and @minnbuckeye, I noticed this little star-shaped discoloration on one of the brachiopods. Anyone have any idea what could have produced this mark? 2 Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Very interesting. Was that on the large brachiopod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 2 thoughts. An attachment scar (not crinoid) or a mineral stain from a piece that was resting against it. I like the latter idea better. 2 Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said: Very interesting. Was that on the large brachiopod? Just one of the average size ones. I can post a photo if it helps. Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Would love to get a perspective on the brach in case this is truly something. Sure looks like something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dretsend Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, GeschWhat said: While scanning some of the fossil plates I found hunting with @Bev and @minnbuckeye, I noticed this little star-shaped discoloration on one of the brachiopods. Anyone have any idea what could have produced this mark? Definitely looks like an asterina starfish, but being all soft tissue, it would be very weird it left any mark? And never seen one that small... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 It is from one of the larger plates up where we were finding the sponge spicules. What was the name of that cliff? Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, Dretsend said: Definitely looks like an asterina starfish, but being all soft tissue, it would be very weird it left any mark? And never seen one that small... I guess it's possible that it could be a stain left by something with soft tissue, but it's weird that it is just an outline. Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 It is the remnant of a crinoid holdfast showing stellate attachment. Very unusual and interesting association piece! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, piranha said: It is the remnant of a crinoid holdfast showing stellate attachment. Very unusual and interesting association piece! Thank you! I was kind of wondering if crinoids could have attachment points like that. The only thing is, I don't recall finding any crinoids in that layer/area. @Minnbuckeye is much more familiar with the location. Did you find any, Mike? Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Can you help me understand how that would leave a 'hollow' star tracing like this? Seems that, assuming the star-shaped hole goes all the way through the holdfast, the image would more likely be a solid star, within an amorphous field (being the footprint of the holdfast). I was actually wondering whether it could have transferred from contact with wrapping material. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 The problem I have with a crinoid hold fast is the lack of evidence of arms beyond the star. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 30 minutes ago, Auspex said: Can you help me understand how that would leave a 'hollow' star tracing like this? Seems that, assuming the star-shaped hole goes all the way through the holdfast, the image would more likely be a solid star, within an amorphous field (being the footprint of the holdfast). I was actually wondering whether it could have transferred from contact with wrapping material. It is not a perfect tracing. Look again closely, there is varying thickness to the 'outline'. The lack of a filled void is probably a diagenetic artifact. 28 minutes ago, ynot said: The problem I have with a crinoid hold fast is the lack of evidence of arms beyond the star. I think your argument is flawed, unfortunately we can't always special order fully intact Ordovician fossils. A better explanation is: the arms are absent. We do have a great clue in this case and it appears to be fairly obvious. Btw, I'm all ears if there is another more obvious explanation for this fossil These holdfasts types are described with pentaradial symmetry that extends into the multiplated holdfast: "Pentapartite stems with stellate axial canals are virtually restricted to crinoids, so it is reasonable to eliminate the noncrinoid taxa from consideration." Lewis, R.D. 1982 Holdfasts. pp. 57-67 In: Sprinkle, J. (ed.) Echinoderm Faunas from the Bromide Formation (Middle Ordovician) of Oklahoma. University of Kansas Paleontological Contributions, Monograph 1:1-369 PDF LINK 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 26 minutes ago, Auspex said: I was actually wondering whether it could have transferred from contact with wrapping material. It wasn't wrapped. There was nothing that it could have transferred from (other than another rock). You can see a little of the iron oxide on it from one of the rocks with sponge spicules. Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 I really don't doubt that Scott has the right of it, I'm just working on understanding the mechanics. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 I plotted the points of the star on a piece of paper then connected the dots. It measures out to be a perfect star!!! The problem is the marker bled through the paper and left 5 big dots on my computer screen. Is there a forum to ask how to remove this stupid mistake from my screen??? I do not find many crinoids in this matrix, but not saying there isn't an occasional one. @GeschWhat, did you see the star with your naked eye or were you playing with that microscope again? It is pretty small on a tiny brachiopod. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 I just went up and took another gander at it under the microscope and brushed it with a soft brush. It isn't mineral staining. The star appears to be somewhat translucent. Most of the shell material appears to be missing, so perhaps a pentacrinoid holdfast??? 2 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said: @GeschWhat, did you see the star with your naked eye or were you playing with that microscope again? It is pretty small on a tiny brachiopod. Playing with the microscope of course! I like to scan everything for microfossils. Is this something someone is interested in or should I donate it? Mike, of course, would get first dibs. Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said: how to remove this stupid mistake from my screen? A label remover called ZO-EZE (1,1,1 trichlorethylene and isopropanol) will take it right off, without damaging your screen. (Don't ask me how I know this....) 2 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 If, the star-shaped pattern represent a crinoid columnal or scar in transverse section, I'm wondering where is the lumen from the center, or if it's the lumen / cirrus scar of a crinoid, where is the crenulae or the outer mark of the columnal / cirrus? - I would eliminate a central columnal or a scar considering the patterns outside of it. If, what it looks to be in the center is the mouth and the sticking-out crescent is the anus, I could go with crinoid crown, according to this photo, but again, the outside pattern is strange for me. There could be arms with pinnules in my thinking. Maybe there are superposed tiny layers in the sediment, making more difficult the ID? 3 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Auspex said: Don't ask me how I know this....) @Auspex, your response has to be followed by a question, HOW DID YOU KNOW THIS! Hopefully the story will lessen how foolish I feel! @GeschWhat, if you are going to discard it, Yes I would take it. But you have more contacts than I for proper ID. Though the responses have me pretty well convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said: @GeschWhat, if you are going to discard it, Yes I would take it. But you have more contacts than I for proper ID. Though the responses have me pretty well convinced. If it is something unusual, I think a brach person should have it. I just brought the brachs and slabs home to give to kids (after I scanned them for hidden treasures under the microscope). If I don't limit myself to ichnos, I'd have to get a second home to store my husband fossils. 1 Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 27 minutes ago, GeschWhat said: If it is something unusual, I think a brach person should have it. @Peat Burnsis a relatively close brachiopod person. I know he likes epibionts. We will see if he has seen this yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 tattooed brachiopod 1 "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peat Burns Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 2 hours ago, minnbuckeye said: @Peat Burnsis a relatively close brachiopod person. I know he likes epibionts. We will see if he has seen this yet. I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help. All the above suggestions seem reasonable. The only other thing I could think of while brainstorming was the faint scar of an unusually stellate edrioasteroid, but I am unfamiliar with the possible taxa from that locality and their forms. (Isorophusella?) I think its an unlikely possibility for a number of reasons. Another possibility is that the star shape is pure coincidence and not biological. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Looks like an edrioasteroid to me edit: an agelacrinid one edit two: apologies to Peat,didn't see his post.He's got it right on the dot,obviously 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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