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Dpaul7

Timor Ammonite help

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Dpaul7

Here is a nice little Ammonite from Timor.  It is unpolished (the other ones I am trying to work with ARE polished). Any help is appreciated! Is it indeed Ceretite?

Small Ceratite Ammonite - Timor 1.JPG

Small Ceratite Ammonite - Timor 2.JPG

Small Ceratite Ammonite - Timor 3.JPG

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Tidgy's Dad

Yes, I think it's a ceratite, may even be the genus Ceratites, though I'm far from certain. 

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Dpaul7

Thank you, Adam! 

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Ludwigia

I also would say that it's a ceratite, although I couldn't say which one. Maybe @andreas could venture an opinion again. It sure would help with the id if you could get it abraded.

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Dpaul7

Thank you, Ludwigia - I am happy knowing it is a ceratite!  I love the patterns on it. I am learning a bit each day - hope to have a little more knowledge soon! :ammonite01:

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andreas
There is a good visible suture on your ammonoid. So please look in Metalegoceratidae (Goniatitida, Ammonoidea) and compare the suture with your ammonoid. Permian age of your ammonoid is for sure.
 
If you are unsure what genus just wrote cf. whateveryouthinkitis sp.
If you are unsure what species just wrote whatitis cf. Ithinkso.
 
 This is common use in science and signals your doubts/the doubts of an author for a possible later reviewer or collector.
cf. is short of latin confere what means compare to/with.
 
In the linked work it is ranged to Goniatida not Ceratida. Therefore no "Ceratites"

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doushantuo

acrosp.jpg

 

 

 

 

arcrosp.jpg

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Dpaul7
30 minutes ago, andreas said:

. So please look in Metalegoceratidae (Goniatitida, Ammonoidea) and compare the suture with your ammonoid. Permian age of your ammonoid is for sure.

Excellent - I have looked at the pattern, and I DO think it matches.  The odd "center" pattern is there. Therefore I believe THESE fall into the same category:

#1 and #2 show the pattern; #3 and #4 are the same speciment, showing different views. I think what has been confusing me is the following chart: I see the rounded suture lobes, and I think Ceratitic! The article you referenced has been a big help!  Please see my next reply below; what do do here?

Timor Ammonite B 4.JPG

Timor Ammonite C 4.JPG

Timor Ammonite D 4.JPG

Timor Ammonite D 5.JPG

Cephalopods.jpg

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Dpaul7

This ammonoid is ALSO from Timor.  I really cannot see a suture pattern clearly.

I can classify it to:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Mollusca
Class: Cephalopoda   Subclass: †Ammonoidea

Is this about as far as I can get? Or are there other things I can look for?

Timor Ammonite E 1.JPG

Timor Ammonite E 2.JPG

Timor Ammonite E 3.JPG

Timor Ammonite E 4.JPG

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Dpaul7
17 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

acrosp.jpg

 

 

 

 

arcrosp.jpg

Many thanks!  I am studying this work.... While some aspects are becoming clearer for me... others will still require more study! 

I guess THAT is why I am enjoying my fossils so much - It proves I AM NOT too old to learn something new! And I DO enjoy learning new things.

SO many members here, and they post such interesting things. Sometimes it is a bit overwhelming... to see all of these fascinating extinct plants and animals!

And so many helpful members... who are willing to teach and explain.

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Dpaul7

@Ludwigia    @andreas Danke vielmals! Deine Hilfe ist sehr Willkommen! Wenn ich Familie in Deutschland besuchen kann, werde ich sicher nach Fossilien jagen! 

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doushantuo

You have intellectual curiosity,Dave,and that's an asset in this world( or at least should be),but hey,who am I to tell you thatB)

Which reminds me: how do you know it's Timorese?

In short,what's the provenance?

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Dpaul7
4 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

You have intellectual curiosity,Dave,and that's an asset in this world( or at least should be),but hey,who am I to tell you thatB)

Which reminds me: how do you know it's Timorese?

In short,what's the provenance?

First, Thanks for the reference.  I went to the post you mentioned; sadly the books on TImor Ammonites are not available.  (I will search in Russian databases; they frequently have works I want). 

As for the provenance - An OLD OLD friend from high school days was our county Geologist - His wife won $8 million on the Pennsylvania Lottery - and they went into the rock & fossil business big time!  They traveled the world buying - My friend bought some amazing things from them (He is well-funded!!!)  This couple could be seen on a huge area of Tucson for the big show; the Tokyo show, etc. Sadly, my friend died rather suddenly a couple years ago.  His wife still runs the store... All of their material is marked with location, and identnification if it was available.  I had bought ONE  of the polished TImor ammonoids - Then I discovered they were rather special!  So I went and bought all the Polished ones that were out for display.  They still have a stock of unpolished ones - very very reasonable, I think.  I like Ammonites - Michael, the late owner, REALLY knew his stuff.  He and his Missus traveled the world searchingt for interesting fossils & minerals... A dream job and life for them! Almost 50 years ago, Michael, myself and a couple other friends shared a host of scientific interests, fossils and geology among those interests!  I love to visit there... The wife is a wonderful, pleasant lady to talk to, and she also knows quite a bit about their material!

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doushantuo

GREAT story,Dave:D:dinothumb:

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doushantuo

About Timor:

Huge, huge hydrocarbon interests at work there.

Furthermore, both Portugal, and my country the Netherlands, have a colonial past to deal with(particularly Timor!!).

 

Anything relating to the geology of the former "Dutch East Indies" is hard to get, the publisher for a lot of the Indonesian literature is Brill in Leiden, which doesn't help either.

 

The "Palaeontology of Timor" series (PALAEONTOGRAPHICA !!) is heavily paywalled, you really have to fork out the dough if you want any of those.

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Dpaul7

If the material is in Dutch. I should be able to struggle through it!  The language makes me a little crazy - I keep switching between English & German in my mind...  Any work in Portuguese I can read... so I will search for that also!  I've seen non-Ammonite volumes in the Paleontology of Timor... yes, expensive!!!!!

Some of the Russian sites do have a wide selection of material - I will be checking with them later in the day! Thankfully, I do not have to restrict myself to only English works! 

 

 

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andreas

 

 

2 hours ago, Dpaul7 said:

If the material is in Dutch. I should be able to struggle through it!  The language makes me a little crazy - I keep switching between English & German in my mind...  Any work in Portuguese I can read... so I will search for that also!  I've seen non-Ammonite volumes in the Paleontology of Timor... yes, expensive!!!!!

Some of the Russian sites do have a wide selection of material - I will be checking with them later in the day! Thankfully, I do not have to restrict myself to only English works! 

 

 

I only can help you with the triassic ones

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piranha

Haniel, C.A. 1915

Die Cephalopoden der Dyas von Timor.

Paläontologie von Timor, 3(6):1-153

 

Smith, J.P. 1927

Permian ammonoids of Timor.

Jaarbuch van het Mijnwezen in Nederlandsch Oost Indie, 55(1):1-89

 

Wanner, J. 1932

Beiträge zur Paläontologie des Ostindischen Archipels, III, Zur Kenntnis der permischen Ammonoideen-fauna von Timor.

Neues Jahrbuch fur Mineralogie, Geologie und Paläontologie, Abhandlungen, Abteilung B, 67(2):257-278

 

Gerth, H. 1950

Die Ammonoideen des Perms von Timor und ihre Bedeutung fur die stratigraphische Gliederung der Permformation.

Neues Jahrbuch fur Mineralogie, Geologie und Paläontologie, Abhandlungen, Abteilung B, 91(2):233-320

 

Charlton, T.R., et al. 2002

The Permian of Timor: stratigraphy, palaeontology and palaeogeography.

Journal of Asian Earth Sciences, 20(6):719-774   PDF LINK

 

Leonova, T.B. 2011

Permian ammonoids: biostratigraphic, biogeographical, and ecological analysis.

Paleontological Journal, 45(10):1206-1312   PDF LINK

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