fossilized6s Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Found this last Sunday. And i can't seem to narrow down who lost it, Xenacanthus or Orthacanthus. To my knowledge neither has been formally described from the location it was found. And, no, i will not say where. I'll simply say LaSalle county, IL. Still not sure if my site is Permian or Carboniferous. I'm 90% convinced it's Carboniferous. Any ID help is much appreicated. I'm leaning more towards Orthacanthus. Sorry, i'll add mm later. As found: After some needle prep: 3 ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old bones Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Wow, that's different, Charlie! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Nice find! The Xenacanthus teeth I have seen do not have serrations, as Yours does. 2 Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 1 hour ago, ynot said: Nice find! The Xenacanthus teeth I have seen do not have serrations, as Yours does. I agree. But all of the Orthacantus i have in my collection don't either, but they're from Oklahoma. Maybe this just has a better preservation.....idk. ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentx Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Great find. Here's one from Oklahoma that does have serrations. 6 "Journey through a universe ablaze with changes" Phil Ochs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 That's a beauty! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 @Archie do you have an opinion? ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 Is the difference in tooth morphology between these two sharks basically size? Does anyone know of any defining characteristics that would help narrow this down? ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB88 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Yes, they can have serrations. Awesome find too btw! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 The major resource/baseline papers for xenacanthid dentition might be miscellaneous papers by Schneider in the Freiberger Forschungshefte*. (Xenacanthids being a well-known constituent of the Permo-Carboniferous ichthyofauna of Middle Europe) Also.I think Pfeil authored a hefty monograph on Carboniferous-Permian sharks ,in 1983. All of the above are in German,I think,which MIGHT limit their usefulness? Are these papers hard to get? You bet *edit: SCHNEIDER, J.W. & ZAJIC, J. 1994. Xenacanthiden (Pisces: Chondrichthyes) des mitteleuropaeischen Oberkarbon und Perm - Revision der Originale zu GOLDFUSS, 1847, BEYRICH, 1848, KNEe, 1867 und FRITSCH, 1879-1890.- Freiberger Forschungshefte, (C) 452: 101-151, 31 Abb., 3 Taf., Leipzig. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deutscheben Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Very cool find! I have found a half dozen different genera of shark teeth in LaSalle County, but no xenacanth teeth. I'm not an expert, but from my reading it seems like there can be quite a bit of variation within the species as well as between Orthacanthus and Xenacanthus. This paper talks a little bit about the morphology of O. compressus teeth, though, it might be useful: https://research-information.bristol.ac.uk/files/91128395/OGoghain_2016.compressed.pdf 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Same source as above(Hampe/Trans.RS Edinburgh): johnson 1999* *Being free access,this paper is probably in several libraries here(4,1 Mb) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdp Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Yeah that's Orthacanthus. Neat specimen; Carboniferous vertebrates are rare in Illinois outside of Mazon and the black shales. Do you get other vertebrate material from this locality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Awesome find! Really gorgeous tooth and great needle work. The literature I have seems to indicate the difference is that Orthacanthus have serrations and Xenacanthus do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 On 7/4/2018 at 8:55 AM, jdp said: Yeah that's Orthacanthus. Neat specimen; Carboniferous vertebrates are rare in Illinois outside of Mazon and the black shales. Do you get other vertebrate material from this locality? Thanks. I did find a bone block associated with crinoids, nautiloids, denticles and possible cartilage. 5 hours ago, Archie said: Awesome find! Really gorgeous tooth and great needle work. The literature I have seems to indicate the difference is that Orthacanthus have serrations and Xenacanthus do not. Thanks. I'm almost positive this is Orthacanthus. ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdp Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Any pics of that bone block? Scientific interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, jdp said: Any pics of that bone block? Scientific interest. It really deserves it's own topic, but here are a few teasers. ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdp Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Very interesting. Keep me posted, especially as prep progresses. Is this in Francis Creek Shale in a non-nodule layer? Or is it something else e.g. McLeansboro Formation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 It's from somewhere else. I haven't narrowed down a formation yet. Narrowed it down to Upper Pennsylvanian though. ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCFossils Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Nice finds Charlie! There is quite a bit of shark material in the limestone and black Shale in the areas you are collecting. i would agree with others that your tooth is from an Orthacanthus. I do not recall having seen any others from that area. Tetrapod bones and teeth can also be found in the area you are collecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 Thanks everyone. I'm 99.9% sure the tooth is Orthacanthus. And mostly likely the first example of this species from the fauna. I'll post a whole new topic on my other item. I'm pretty convinced the bones are from a Tetrapod of some sort. Definitely something big and boney from the Permocarboniferous. ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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