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Still_human

Ok, so this is supposed to be a spinosaurus vert, one with part of the sail. At first glance it seems perfect, but upon further study, while trying to place it on spinosaurus skeletons, it doesn't seem to match any exactly. For one thing, spinosaurus sails, at least in the relatively insignificant amount of individuals on display, sail bones that don't go any higher than this one(it appears this is a fully intact sail vert), don't seem to get as wide. And the ones that do, then continue up and get thinner. There ARE similar shaped "sail" bones, at the transition to the neck, and tail, but those aren't as tall as this one. The main bone itself appears to be from the tail, or rear part of the sail, but....well, anywhere that one part of the bone fits well, doesnt seem to match the rest of it very well. Sadly I can't find any good images of many of each type of vert, and anywhere that has good close up views of verts, only have 1 or 2 of any type, which isn't good enough to come to any sufficient conclusions. 

spinosaur fossils(specifically verts), seem to be something they work with a lot, so I would be very surprised if along with all the other spinosaurus verts they get in, they would end up with the sail spine of some other animal. And if somehow so, then not realizing it. 

IMG_6657.PNG

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WhodamanHD

Looks a bit composited but I’m no expert on these.

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LordTrilobite

As WhodamanHD said this does indeed look composited. Half way up the dorsal spine there is a very clear area that has been glued and filled in. Therefore no conclusion at all can be made about the original length of the dorsal spine. The fact that the dorsal spine is too short for Spinosaurus aegyptiacus really tells us nothing at all since we do not know the original length. The tip of the dorsal spine does indeed look like the tip of a dorsal spine and it does seem consistent with Spinosaurus aegyptiacus. But we do not know if this spine tip belongs to a different individual or to this vert.

 

On Spinosaurus aegyptiacus the base of the dorsal spine on dorsal vertebra has an anteroposterior (front to back) expansion. This expansion can be seen in the original illustrations from Stromer.

Spinosaurus_vertebrae.png

 

However, it's also important to note that there are at least two Spinosaurids present in the Kem Kem beds. One is Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis and the other might be Spinosaurus aegyptiacus or possibly Spinosaurus sp. Though it's still a bit unclear it seems like Sigilmassasaurus might not have a sail, similar most other Spinosaurids.

 

The centrum looks to be mostly intact though much of the neural arch where the dorsal spine attaches is very broken up and looks like a mess. This photo is definitely no good enough to come to any sort of conclusion on the state of this middle area. This middle area of the neural arch might also have been tampered with.

 

The centrum looks like it's from a dorsal vertebra. Though hard to tell, I would say this centrum looks a little fat for Spinosaurid. Spinosaurid dorsal vertebrae are generally quite thin and pinched in the middle. Cervical and dorsal vertebrae on Spinosaurids are also opisthocoelous. This means that the posterior articular surface is concave and the anterior articular surface is convex. Depending on the vertebra position it varies in how pronounced those features are. but since we cannot see the front of the centrum in this picture we cannot judge if the front is convex.

 

 

To recap, this one photo is simply not enough to make any proper judgement though it seems a bit suspicious on multiple fronts. Probably best to stay away.

 

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Agree with LordTrilobite and Whodaman, the neural spine looks composited and a bit small.  Not sure its a Spino centrum for the reason LT stated and its a dorsal.

 Additional photos are a must.

The some additional photos of what the vertebrae should look like

 

building-spinosaurus-07-walking.jpg.26f9d678d94cfff33ea09d0f8077d7bf.jpg

building-spinosaurus-04-nose.jpg.29ba2b2fff07a2b227a93f47292a3fa5.jpg

Screenshot_20170914-162058.thumb.png.9cb605c0d9ded2124ca3950699960682.png

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LordTrilobite

What a waste...

 

Oh wow. That really is a monster of a composite. Those new photos are quite informative.

 

This is a composite of AT LEAST 3 different specimens, but possibly more. The bad lighting doesn't make it easier. Like I said before, the tip of the dorsal spine is likely actually the tip of a dorsal spine that could very well be Spinosaurid due to the size and shape.

With these photos there's some better confirmation that the centrum doesn't belong to the dorsal spine and I would say it's not Spinosaurid, but rather some other dinosaur or croc. But it still looks like a dorsal centrum to me.

 

Now the middle bit is where it gets interesting. This is not part of a vertebra at all. The front view is quite informative. That little hook shape is unmistakable. That is absolutely 100% a left theropod quadrate that has been jammed between two vertebra pieces. The quadrate bone is part of the back of the skull and has a very distinctive shape. The bottom part of the quadrate is where the lower jaw articulates.

Though this piece is far to broken up and covered in garbage it's hard to tell what type of animal it would be. But the shape is very consistent with Spinosaurid quadrates. With a proper clean it would be possible to say if it's Spinosaurid or not. Though with the consistent shape and angles I would say it's likely that it's a Spinosaurus left quadrate.

 

What an absolute waste of a really cool specimen. I don't see much hope in cleaning such a specimen though. The glue that is often used on Kem Kem specimens is very hard to get rid of. So there's no doubt this is made from a few cool pieces, but it's been absolutely ruined.

 

 

For reference, here are a number of examples of Spinosaurus quadrates.

Quadrates-of-Morphotype-1-referred-to-Spinosaurus-aegyptiacus-A-N-Left-quadrates-of.ppm

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:hearty-laugh:Frankenstein looks better

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WhodamanHD

So sad, wish they wouldn’t make their “repairs” so irreversible.

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Still_human

Oh wow!!!!! That's terrible!!!!! Ugh, I hate being the bearer of bad news....especially when I don't really know them....and after I showed possible interest, they're probably gonna think I'm just trying to get it for a lot less:/

 

btw, lordtrilobite, U ARE AMAZING!!!!! VERY impressive!

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This is terrible. Absolutely terrible. I honestly think they would make more $ if they sold these pieces without restoration. That quadrate has got to be worth something. Or...well.....it was. 

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Here is one cut at Mr Frankenstein, there are many ways to look at it.  Please walk away from it nothing worth salvaging.

The red looks like the tip neural spine from a Spinosaurid HOWEVER its awfully fat compared to mine and may be a hip bone

The Green is a centrum of an indeterminate theropod may be Carch or even Spino

The rest are pieces, bones,  they added, some junk to resemble processes and the spine

IMG_6660.PNG.f0bfe34a8d65d930f8d379469ce60910_20180704160612614.thumb.jpg.f30544e7198a073d2394adb4deb63099.jpg

 

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LordTrilobite
8 hours ago, Still_human said:

So it's like this?

IMG_6666.PNG

Roughly like that yes, with the middle piece being the quadrate.

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I really don't know why someone would mash so many fossils together like this it's disgusting the best thing to do with pieces like this is avoid if nobody buys these type of frankstein monstrosities eventually they will stop being made like this.

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The price being asked for it is absurd for what it is, too. Each part on its own would have had some value before it was turned into this mess.

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Still_human

Yeah, if it was cheap, I'd TOTALLY still get it and salvage most of it. I guess if the glue doesn't come apart, u could still saw right at the edges of the glue, and just lose a thin strip of mostly glue, but have most of the top part, most of the vert at the base, after shaving off the top I guess, and I dunno....still be left with at least PART of the middle piece. I'd still b pretty happy if I could know that the top part was part of a spino sail! There's no way itll end up being cheap enough for me to deal with all that, tho.

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Still_human

If it WAS what it was supposed to b, that wouldn't b a bad price at all

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Still_human

So the consensus is that the chances of being able to disassemble without significantly damaging the 1 piece into 3 cool (2 VERY cool)pieces, are almost none? What kinda price WOULD u all pay for that, as is? Couple hundred? At least the top and middle piece can be salvaged to a fair extent. Even just plain snapping them apart and chipping off all the garbage at the bottom of the quadrate would leave you with most of what's there, and It's a large piece. I'm sure they wouldn't sell it for that low, so this is just hypothetical. And thoughts on the top being a spino sail section? Someone mentioned it might b a hip bone cause it's much thicker than their spino sail, but that could just be because it's part of a much larger sail, couldn't it?

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19 minutes ago, Still_human said:

Someone mentioned it might b a hip bone cause it's much thicker than their spino sail, but that could just be because it's part of a much larger sail, couldn't

No.  I have several neural spines from a number of positions and they should look like this.  Very consistent thickness <.5"

This is the top of a pretty large one, compare this to the one you are looking at.

20180705_150139.thumb.jpg.d89fb9c10df8a13ef85b4aedbb9bf2b6.jpg

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Still_human

Actually, the width of just the top bone does look pretty consistent. I think everything below the blue lines I drew, is the fake/matrix used to connect the quadrate. 

 

Btw, your spino spine is awesome. Can I see a picture from the front??

IMG_6711.PNG

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  • 3 weeks later...
Still_human

I'll never be able to look at a spinosaurus skull again the same way, after seeing this persons mistake...

IMG_6881.PNG

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