suchomimus or spinosauridae idet. ?

[Masp]

Seller claims to have secured this in an estate sale. It’s on the pricey side. For me, it’s difficult to see any difference between this and an average spinosaurus tooth.

 

The fossil is from moroccan sahara, says there is civil war in the tenere desert, and therefore collecting there is illegal due to current regulations. Thoughts?

[InvestableCards]

The pics aren't great, but I would say it's not Suchomimus. It really doesn't look like one at all. The tooth looks completely wrong and the location is wrong. 

[Troodon]

Suchomimus is only found in Niger, Elrhaz Fm not Morocco.  What you have here is your standard  Spinosaurid teeth 

[W. Harvey]

I believe Suchomimus is only described from the Elrhaz Formation in Niger. Based on where this tooth was found I would say it's from an indeterminate spinosaurid. Moroccan spinosaurid teeth are sometimes sold as Suchomimus to increase the value of the tooth, as fossil remains from Suchomimus are much rarer.

 

Edit: It's entirely possible that Suchomimus remains could be found in Morocco, but the genus hasn't been described from there. Only spinosaurid teeth from the Elrhaz Formation in Niger can be confidently identified as belonging to the genus Suchomimus.

Edited July 10, 2018 by W. Harvey

[Vieira]

I agree. It looks like a Spinosaur tooth for me.

[Masp]

@InvestableCards @Troodon @W. Harvey @Vieira Thanks guys, my thoughts exactly.  The seller tries to overcompensate for the lack of knowledge by describing how rare it is compared to Tyrannosaurus and how beautiul the enamel is.  Anytime there’s more opinion vs facts, locality, etc in the decription I’m automatically concerned.  

[Troodon]

Suchomimus is a Baryonychinae and those teeth are more cylindrical/curved with very fine serrations  like these from a teeth from Baryonyx which is also a Baryonychine 

[Troodon]

11 minutes ago, W. Harvey said:

Edit: It's entirely possible that Suchomimus remains could be found in Morocco, but the genus hasn't been described from there.

Sigilmassasaurus is a Spinosaurid described from the Kem Kem and a number of paleontologists believe it to be a Baryonychinae but new discoveries and dental evidence is needed to support that theory.

[Runner64]

19 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Sigilmassasaurus is a Spinosaurid described from the Kem Kem and a number of paleontologists believe it to be a Baryonychinae but new discoveries and dental evidence is needed to support that theory.

Have any Baryonychinae teeth been found in the Kem Kem Beds? With all the digging that goes on in Morocco, it still surprises me how much remains unanswered. We hardly know anything from the region.

[LordTrilobite]

2 hours ago, Runner64 said:

Have any Baryonychinae teeth been found in the Kem Kem Beds? With all the digging that goes on in Morocco, it still surprises me how much remains unanswered. We hardly know anything from the region.

Besides the possibility of Sigilmassasaurus being possibly Baryonychinae (and as Troodon said, that's not confirmed yet), no there is no direct evidence that there are Baryonychinae in the Kem Kem beds. And as Troodon already alluded to, Suchomimus and all other known Baryonychinae have very small serrations on their carinae. Spinosaurus and all other known members of Spinosaurinae have no serrations at all. Though even this is not that conclusive due to the small sample size.

 

But finding definite Spinosaurid teeth from the Kem Kem beds that have serrations would be quite good evidence that Baryonychinae are be present there. So far I have not heard of any definite serrated Spinosaurid teeth from the Kem Kem beds. I have one tooth in my collection that looks like Spinosaurid and has some wrinkling near the carinae that look like it might have been serrated. But the edge is too damaged to tell if it did for sure.

 

 

Also, yeah I agree with the rest. It's not Suchomimus if it's from Morocco. That animal is only known from Niger. The known Spinosaurids from the Kem Kem beds only have two currently described species. Spinosaurus aegyptiacus and Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis. Spinosaurus maroccanus is a junior synonym of S. brevicollis and thus not valid.

[Troodon]

1 hour ago, Runner64 said:

Have any Baryonychinae teeth been found in the Kem Kem Beds? With all the digging that goes on in Morocco, it still surprises me how much remains unanswered. We hardly know anything from the region.

No, they not and Im not sure they will and Ive changed my mind several times.  Ive looked at hundreds of teeth at the Tucson show and never have seen one.  Paleontologists have never reported on any.  You would think that if they were in that fauna some would have surfaced by now with the number of teeth that are processed every year.   Yes lots of unknowns and nothing would surprise me.

[Runner64]

6 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

Besides the possibility of Sigilmassasaurus being possibly Baryonychinae (and as Troodon said, that's not confirmed yet), no there is no direct evidence that there are Baryonychinae in the Kem Kem beds. And as Troodon already alluded to, Suchomimus and all other known Baryonychinae have very small serrations on their carinae. Spinosaurus and all other known members of Spinosaurinae have no serrations at all. Though even this is not that conclusive due to the small sample size.

 

But finding definite Spinosaurid teeth from the Kem Kem beds that have serrations would be quite good evidence that Baryonychinae are be present there. So far I have not heard of any definite serrated Spinosaurid teeth from the Kem Kem beds. I have one tooth in my collection that looks like Spinosaurid and has some wrinkling near the carinae that look like it might have been serrated. But the edge is too damaged to tell if it did for sure.

 

 

Also, yeah I agree with the rest. It's not Suchomimus if it's from Morocco. That animal is only known from Niger. The known Spinosaurids from the Kem Kem beds only have two currently described species. Spinosaurus aegyptiacus and Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis. Spinosaurus maroccanus is a junior synonym of S. brevicollis and thus not valid.

Do you mind posting a picture of that tooth here? I’d love to see an example of this found in the Kem Kem Beds.

[LordTrilobite]

2 minutes ago, Runner64 said:

Do you mind posting a picture of that tooth here? I’d love to see an example of this found in the Kem Kem Beds.

Well there's not much to see. That's the problem. Spinosaurinae do not have serrations. But near the carinae they often have fine wavey sculpturing that is reminiscent of the surface near carinae with actual serrations.  My tooth has the hint of such wavey sculpturing, but as I said the carinae themselves are a bit too damaged to tell for sure if it had serrations or not. And one also needs to keep in mind that there are many crocs in the Kem Kem beds that do have serrations on their teeth. Spinosaurid teeth can sometimes be confused with croc teeth due to the relatively similar shape.

 

Also I don't have any photos of the tooth right now.