Seal skull teeth both mandibles

[Miocene_Mason]

4 minutes ago, Kerrsharpeyoung said:

Here’s a shark very I’ve been recently working on. Another few hours to go 

Looking good. Don’t rush as those things are fragile. It’s pretty big, only a few things it could be from.

[Kerrsharpeyoung]

10 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

Looking good. Don’t rush as those things are fragile. It’s pretty big, only a few things it could be from.

I won’t!  

[ynot]

Maybe @Ptychodus04 can help with the questions about prepping this beauty.

[cavemanfl]

19 hours ago, Kerrsharpeyoung said:

the Most complete skull I’ve found to date. Both bottom mandibles seem to have all of the teeth and possibly only missing 2 premolars out of the top. Skull looks to be all there and possibly some other bones judging from some broken cross sections but who knows!  I’ll upload more photos in the comments. 

The rock is 45.5 cm long 36cm wide 

the skull measures 26cm 

I’ll continue work progress as time goes she may take a while! 

Amazing find

[Kerrsharpeyoung]

8 hours ago, ynot said:

Maybe @Ptychodus04 can help with the questions about prepping this beauty.

Awesome I’m keen on any advice especially with teeth 

[Ptychodus04]

10 hours ago, ynot said:

Maybe @Ptychodus04 can help with the questions about prepping this beauty.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It’s quite a piece!

1 hour ago, Kerrsharpeyoung said:

Awesome I’m keen on any advice especially with teeth 

First...

 

Now that’s out of the way, on to the prep talk. What kind of tools do you have? Is the concretion extremely hard (it looks that way)?

 

Definitely do not tackle this prep until you are extremely comfortable with prep work. This one could get complicated. The first question for your prep is how do you intend to display. Do you want a fully prepared and reassembled specimen or a more in situ piece? This will determine the path you take for prep.

 

If you ware going to reassemble the skull, you want to remove the concretion from the bones. This is a philosophical distinction that will help minimize damage. You never remove a specimen from the matrix.

 

The main thing you want to keep in mind with teeth is that they almost want to break. Vibration form scribed can tear them apart. I usually apply a thick coating of PVA to exposed enamel to help keep them together. This is removed at the end of the prep with acetone.

 

Go SLOW.  

[RJB]

22 hours ago, ynot said:

Looks like both parts to Me.

How did I miss that?  Not a clue.

 

RB

[Tidgy's Dad]

Super find! 

Interesting thread.

[Kerrsharpeyoung]

19 hours ago, Ptychodus04 said:

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It’s quite a piece!

First...

 

Now that’s out of the way, on to the prep talk. What kind of tools do you have? Is the concretion extremely hard (it looks that way)?

 

Definitely do not tackle this prep until you are extremely comfortable with prep work. This one could get complicated. The first question for your prep is how do you intend to display. Do you want a fully prepared and reassembled specimen or a more in situ piece? This will determine the path you take for prep.

 

If you ware going to reassemble the skull, you want to remove the concretion from the bones. This is a philosophical distinction that will help minimize damage. You never remove a specimen from the matrix.

 

The main thing you want to keep in mind with teeth is that they almost want to break. Vibration form scribed can tear them apart. I usually apply a thick coating of PVA to exposed enamel to help keep them together. This is removed at the end of the prep with acetone.

 

Go SLOW.  

Hey thanks so much for your advice! Still can’t belive I found this! If you like I can email you some more photos? Interestingly enough there is a piece of quartz in the rock And a strange pebble and I don’t know what that means either.

 

the rock is quite hard but not so hard that a pen scratches it. It still chips. I don’t own a pen yet I’ve almost saved enough to buy one! 

 

So I’m still a little undecided as to how I want to display it. My current favourite is to work down and leave the cranium in the rock and have the skull angled upwards showing some of the snout. I have no idea what I want to do with the bottom mandibles I think I want to leave them there across the roof of the mouth how they sit now, Instead of making them look articulated. Will I have to leave a lot of rock to hold them up in place? 

 

So just actual PVA glue? And all can Ben removed with acetone? I’ve never tried anything like this but I’m keen to learn more. 

[Ptychodus04]

7 hours ago, Kerrsharpeyoung said:

Hey thanks so much for your advice! Still can’t belive I found this! If you like I can email you some more photos? Interestingly enough there is a piece of quartz in the rock And a strange pebble and I don’t know what that means either.

 

the rock is quite hard but not so hard that a pen scratches it. It still chips. I don’t own a pen yet I’ve almost saved enough to buy one! 

 

So I’m still a little undecided as to how I want to display it. My current favourite is to work down and leave the cranium in the rock and have the skull angled upwards showing some of the snout. I have no idea what I want to do with the bottom mandibles I think I want to leave them there across the roof of the mouth how they sit now, Instead of making them look articulated. Will I have to leave a lot of rock to hold them up in place? 

 

So just actual PVA glue? And all can Ben removed with acetone? I’ve never tried anything like this but I’m keen to learn more. 

Feel free to send photos! You can get creative with the matrix support if you leave everything as is. Concretions are typically pretty stable so a minimal amount of matrix should support the mandibles.

 

Use pure polyvinyl acetate (McGean B15), Paraloid, or Butvar dissolved in acetone for your consolidation. PVA glue (white glue, Elmer’s, etc) is actually a suspension and is not reversible.

 

Also, when you glue your halves together for the prep, you can use the same consolidation material in a thicker mix as glue. Spread it on and clamp it tight for a week or so and you will have a great bond. 

[jcbshark]

That is a beautiful piece, congrats 

[fossilized6s]

What a find! Congratulations, sir. 

[Boesse]

Hi all,

 

As the resident marine mammal guy I am 1) shocked I didn't see this earlier, though I've been quite spotty about checking TFF since April unfortunately, and 2) shocked at how well preserved this is.

 

I cannot stress enough how critical this specimen is. I've seen several partial pinniped skulls from your area and none are as well-preserved as this; all have fracturing and minor surface damage, and none are a skull with associated mandible. If you don't know how to prepare a skull, please donate this to a natural history museum with an established paleontology collection and let a preparator do the work. Prepping skulls out of concretions is a terrible, tedious business and it is very easy to irreparably damage the fossil if the separation is not good (which is often the case at this locality).

 

There are precious few fossil seals from NZ/Australia, and most of them are in private collections - meaning no scientific research may progress.

[ynot]

On 7/24/2018 at 12:24 AM, Kerrsharpeyoung said:

the skull measures 26cm 

I’ll continue work progress as time goes she may take a while! 

Any updates on this?

[Doctor Mud]

Long time no visit for me. I missed TFF, but had a crazy year....

 

This is a very important specimen you have here, probably one of the best pinniped specimens to come out of New Zealand, that I have seen at least.

you have the skull and possibly all of the mandibles with teeth attached.

 

its your find, your call, but I would at the very least get this prepped by a professional and really recommend you donate this to a museum to be prepped and available for study. If it isn’t in a museum we will never know where this is placed in the evolution of pinnipeds. To be described and named fossils need to reside in a collection.

 

Your call, but I have been in your shoes with a number of important specimens. It was hard in a way to let go, but Paul Scofield from the Canterbury museum has been great to work with.

i donated a penguin, large shark vertebrae and an odontocete skull to him. He invited me behind the scenes of the museum and I’ve also met and I am in contact with Al Mannering who does the prep. 

 

Who knows you you may get a species named after you and could get a replica via a 3D print or cast for your collection.

 

I look forward to seeing what happens and the story this dead pinniped head has to tell.

 

Alan Tennyson is the vertebrate curator for Te Papa and would be a good contact, other options include Paul Scofield from Canterbury Museum or Ewan Fordyce from Otago University. 

 

congrats on the amazing find!

[Wolf89]

I would love to see an update

[Kerrsharpeyoung]

Hey gang there’s no update yet on this particular skull as I’m a little afraid to work it yet. I’ve been working on a different seal skull though. The specimen has been glued back together and will wait until I’m very skilled . 

 

The skull will remain in my collection but I’m more than happy for the museum to study it.

 

Also think im the first person to find a giant penguin skull? I was working what I thought was a rib but nooooope. I stopped working immediately. This one will def need to be sent to an expert. 

[Boesse]

I think some further explanation is required. Scientific study is not possible unless the specimen is in a museum collection. No scientist will want to study a fossil that has no possibility of being in a museum collection because it will render any research conducted on the specimen untestable.

 

Why is research conducted on privately held fossils untestable? Several reasons, the most important ones being 1) there is no guarantee that the owner will permit other scientists to examine it and 2) there is no long term guarantee that the specimen will be preserved - it could be sold or given away. Most paleontological journals will automatically reject an article during the peer review process if the fossil in question belongs to a private owner and not a museum.

 

I work with local amateur collectors on the west and east coasts all the time to get fossils like this into museum collections so they are available for study. At the moment, my office desk is occupied by a beautiful 35 cm long toothless walrus skull from Santa Cruz CA that an amateur collector donated to a museum, and which I spent over a year preparing - and it will now be the central attraction in a new paleontological study authored by myself and several others. If it turns out to be a new species, it will be named after the collector - who was 14 years old at the time.

 

This is by far and away the most important pinniped fossil ever found in Australasia and I am literally BEGGING you to make it available for study - it will be an enormous contribution to vertebrate paleontology and almost certainly represents a new species. I am one of less than a dozen pinniped paleontologists on the planet and am qualified to make that call (and, additionally, one of the only living paleontologists who has published on NZ fossil pinnipeds).

[Fossildude19]

20 hours ago, Kerrsharpeyoung said:

Also think im the first person to find a giant penguin skull? I was working what I thought was a rib but nooooope. I stopped working immediately. This one will def need to be sent to an expert. 

 

Sorry mate.  Looks like someone else beat you to it.       Still, yours is a great find!

 

Rosie, Giant Penguin found in Waipara.

[Xiphactinus]

4 hours ago, Boesse said:

I think some further explanation is required. Scientific study is not possible unless the specimen is in a museum collection. No scientist will want to study a fossil that has no possibility of being in a museum collection because it will render any research conducted on the specimen untestable.

 

Why is research conducted on privately held fossils untestable? Several reasons, the most important ones being 1) there is no guarantee that the owner will permit other scientists to examine it and 2) there is no long term guarantee that the specimen will be preserved - it could be sold or given away. Most paleontological journals will automatically reject an article during the peer review process if the fossil in question belongs to a private owner and not a museum.

 

I work with local amateur collectors on the west and east coasts all the time to get fossils like this into museum collections so they are available for study. At the moment, my office desk is occupied by a beautiful 35 cm long toothless walrus skull from Santa Cruz CA that an amateur collector donated to a museum, and which I spent over a year preparing - and it will now be the central attraction in a new paleontological study authored by myself and several others. If it turns out to be a new species, it will be named after the collector - who was 14 years old at the time.

 

This is by far and away the most important pinniped fossil ever found in Australasia and I am literally BEGGING you to make it available for study - it will be an enormous contribution to vertebrate paleontology and almost certainly represents a new species. I am one of less than a dozen pinniped paleontologists on the planet and am qualified to make that call (and, additionally, one of the only living paleontologists who has published on NZ fossil pinnipeds).

If you are hesitant to donate because you want the fossil for your collection, I'm sure you could get a museum-quality cast for your personal collection, while the original is available for study in a museum. Trust me, I've done this. It is tremendously rewarding.

[Kerrsharpeyoung]

4 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

Sorry mate.  Looks like someone else beat you to it.       Still, yours is a great find!

 

Rosie, Giant Penguin found in Waipara.

Different era plus actually I’m sceptical it is even a penguin now. Buuuut I’ll let you all know when I finish working it! Till then hold tight family  

 

9 minutes ago, Xiphactinus said:

If you are hesitant to donate because you want the fossil for your collection, I'm sure you could get a museum-quality cast for your personal collection, while the original is available for study in a museum. Trust me, I've done this. It is tremendously rewarding.

Yeah I understand that. And I’ve had pieces go to the museum before and great things too like seal skulls and jaws with teeth and othe misc bones. We are in close workings with Alan from Te Papa. 

 

I’ve given this piece to a local expert to clean up properly so give it a week or two and I’ll post up what it is! 

[Boesse]

Hmm, no offense, but I've seen some of the prep jobs done by folks in NP and they leave much to be desired - 1-2mm of bone removed from all surfaces. Out of the whole of NZ, only preparators at U. Otago have the skill necessary to prepare this properly.

[jlo]

As an amateur collector I can totally understand wanting to keep that skull in your collection and the desire to prep it yourself.  I'm no expert, but I think you have found something incredibly special.  You could do a lot for a local museum and for the science of paleontology if you donated that rock.  I donated this little pinniped slab to my local museum with no regrets.  They did a fantastic job prepping it, and it was studied by an expert (Boesse in fact).  They even published a paper about it.  

 

There just aren't many places where important pinniped fossils like yours can be found, and there aren't many people with the dedication and ability to find them.  Paleontology really needs amateurs who are willing to help out when they find something exceptional.  I hope you decide to let this one find a home at a museum!

     

[Kerrsharpeyoung]

King penguin skull. Too bad the main part of the skull is shattered (pre fossilisation) but the beak is incredible.