Jump to content

Lycopods on the Menu? A herbivore coprolite mystery...


GeschWhat

Recommended Posts

I was a lucky recipient of a wonderfully CRAPPY package from @Nimravis a couple of months ago. Now I need some educating.

 

1. The only recognizable inclusions in this coprolite are plant fragments, most of which appear to be woody debris. There is one relatively intact "leaf?" that may be recognizable to some of you experienced Mazon Creek folks. My educated guess is it is from a lycopod. Can anyone confirm this. 

 

From what I have read, the only herbivores large enough to have produced a mass of this size are Arthropleura, the giant millipede arthropods. How exciting is that!?!

 

Coprolite-Mazon-Creek-R-001-Views-Small.thumb.jpg.8ec1946f59eb8548c250f875fc7adb05.jpg

 

2. This one looks like some sort of stem fragment. Would this be from a lycopod as well?

 

Coprolite-lycopod-inclusions-Mazon-Creek-R-002-small.thumb.jpg.4153d90b56a70a415e39f777b8a63b32.jpg

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m no expert, but I looked up millipede feces and it looked about right. Someone’s gonna be confused when they look at my search history.

“...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin

Happy hunting,

Mason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arthropleura did indeed eat lycopods. 

They have been found with bits of these plants in their gut and in their coprolites.

Amazing specimen, Lori! :wub:

Great gift, Ralph! @Nimravis

Life's Good!

Tortoise Friend.

MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png.a47e14d65deb3f8b242019b3a81d8160-1.png.60b8b8c07f6fa194511f8b7cfb7cc190.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

They have been found with buts of these plants in their gut

careful you don't mix up your buts and guts :)

Everything is generated through your own will power ~ Ray Bradbury
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

reminds me of a "coal ball". Not sure if they're found there. Your specimen isn't made of coal of course. But then, I don't know anything about millipede's chewing apparatus. A fairly complete leaflet must have been swallowed instead of chewed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Soooooo just how big a millipede are we talking here? :headscratch:

Everything is generated through your own will power ~ Ray Bradbury
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Plax said:

reminds me of a "coal ball". Not sure if they're found there. Your specimen isn't made of coal of course. But then, I don't know anything about millipede's chewing apparatus. A fairly complete leaflet must have been swallowed instead of chewed.

Arthropleura's mouth parts are never preserved, so presumably weren't very hard, so it probably swallowed lumps of stuff lying on the forest floor. 

 

9 minutes ago, Walt said:

Soooooo just how big a millipede are we talking here? :headscratch:

Over 2 metres long and half a metre wide, the largest known terrestrial invertebrate. 

Life's Good!

Tortoise Friend.

MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png.a47e14d65deb3f8b242019b3a81d8160-1.png.60b8b8c07f6fa194511f8b7cfb7cc190.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Over 2 metres long and half a metre wide, the largest known terrestrial invertebrate.

Well, I didn't care much for the 6" long millipedes in the Philippines.... so don't think I would have cared much for this critter.  Cuddly, they are not.

Everything is generated through your own will power ~ Ray Bradbury
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Walt said:

Well, I didn't care much for the 6" long millipedes in the Philippines.... so don't think I would have cared much for this critter.  Cuddly, they are not.

Giant millipedes Iive in Africa at 15 inches, you are most likely thinking of the much more sinister centipede.

“...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin

Happy hunting,

Mason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

Giant millipedes Iive in Africa at 15 inches, you are most likely thinking of the much more sinister centipede.

(Acladocricus cupulifer) - 2007-01-30 Rajah Sikatuna National Park, Bohol - ©Leif Gabrielsen/iGoTerra.com

Acladocricus cupulifer

Rajah Sikatuna National Park, Bohol, Philippines

Everything is generated through your own will power ~ Ray Bradbury
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Walt said:

(Acladocricus cupulifer) - 2007-01-30 Rajah Sikatuna National Park, Bohol - ©Leif Gabrielsen/iGoTerra.com

Acladocricus cupulifer

Rajah Sikatuna National Park, Bohol, Philippines

Another a large millipede!  Thanks for the info! I like millipedes, always seem so kind to me in contrast to centipedes. This is the American giant millipede, I don’t remember exact size but probably a bit over three inches, found him while fossil hunting

4762C2B1-A364-4D0F-AA66-094652CB39E0.jpeg

“...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin

Happy hunting,

Mason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have any millipede poop, but I do have some from a monarch caterpillar. This measures approximately 2 x 4 mm. The largest plant fragment inclusion in this dropping is approximately 0.5 mm x 0.3 mm. The width of coprolites is usually more indicative of the producers size than the length. If we consider the size of the first coprolite, it has a width of 40 mm at it's widest point. The coprolite may have been flattened which may have been flattened somewhat which may mean the fecal pellet produced may have had a smaller width. For the sake of round numbers, the width of the coprolite is 20 times the width of the monarch caterpillar poop. Based on this it is reasonable to say that it was produced by a millipede (or other producer) that is between 20-30 times the size of the monarch caterpillar (say 1 x 4 cm). So we're looking at a bug that has a width of between 20 - 30 cm (8 - 12 inches). From the photos I've seen of Arthropleura, They look to have roughly the same length to width ratio as a caterpillar, so we are looking at an animal maybe 80 - 120 cm in length (31 - 47 inches). 

 

Based on this article posted by the Smithsonian, the coprolite shown there appears to have pretty large plant (cone) fragment inclusions. Of course assigning a producer is a guess.

Monarch-Caterpillar-Droppings.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really interesting specimen/thread. I have a hard enough time with full size lycopod/plant stuff and an ID of a 1mm piece scares me. My brain wants to see leaf scars but.... I'm wondering if Jack has any ideas/perhaps helped with that web content... @fiddlehead

Look forward to see what comes out of this...cool. 

Regards, Chris 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still believe what I wrote in the Smithsonian web page is true and suitably vague. What is known about the Arthropleura diet comes from a single juvenile British specimen which had the remains of its last meal. Inside the stomach were carbonized fragments of vegetable debris. This matter consisted mainly of partially decomposed lycopsid pieces. That said, there are some that say the jaws of adults point to it being a carnivore. This may be true, but I would also point out that chewing up even a decomposed lycopsid cone would not be an easy task. The specimen seen here (also seen on the web link GeschWhat mentioned) is the only fossil I have seen of a shattered, let alone clearly broken example of a lycopsid cone bract. This is how observation makes theory. It is my opinion that the attached example here is LIKELY a Arthropleura coprolite. And the same is certainly possible for the one seen in this post. 

 

Hope this helps,

Jack

Untitled.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I take it this is what Fiddlehead is talking about?

Scottish Jour.Geol.,v.3/1967

2f5666tyyy774ett77archime44e5tmedtr2m35pltwillist.jpg

(below: Taylor/Scott[1983]dtaleyjefferiet66t77archime44e5tmedtr2m35pltrrwillist.jpg

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you so much, Jack (@fiddlehead). I did not know you were the author of that very informative article. Kudos! I am so new to Mazon Creek fossils and not too familiar with plant material in general. Do any of the inclusions in my specimens resemble lycopod fragments (bark, cone or leaf) to you? Also is the scale bar shown on your specimen in centimeters?

 

The Minnesota Zoo has Giant African Millipedes. I spoke with them this morning to see if I could have some of their fecal pellets for analysis. Since the animals are owned by the State, I actually had to write a proposal stating the scope and purpose. Too funny! Anyway, hopefully I will get approval and will have some for comparative purposes. Pill millipedes would likely be a closer match, but I figure giant millipedes' droppings are more analogous to the coprolites than those of a caterpillar. Unfortunately, the zoo's millipedes are feed a pellet diet that is supplemented with lettuce and carrots (no lycopods or decaying plant matter). Hopefully, I will be able to see something under the microscope. Stay tuned!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lori, it sounds like the beginning of a science project. Buy a Giant African Millipede. Raise it on a diet of modern lycopod parts in order to obtain feces for analysis to compare it to fossils. 

My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned.   

See my Arizona Paleontology Guide    link  The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere.       

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, GeschWhat said:

The Minnesota Zoo has Giant African Millipedes. I spoke with them this morning to see if I could have some of their fecal pellets for analysis. Since the animals are owned by the State, I actually had to write a proposal stating the scope and purpose. Too funny!

Lori, I noticed when I was looking at millipedes earlier that there are quite a few forums for millipedes and centipede owners.  (to each their own!) 

Anyway, they exist, so if the zoo does not come through maybe you can hook up with one of them and obtain some pellets.  

Everything is generated through your own will power ~ Ray Bradbury
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Walt said:

Lori, I noticed when I was looking at millipedes earlier that there are quite a few forums for millipedes and centipede owners.  (to each their own!) 

Anyway, they exist, so if the zoo does not come through maybe you can hook up with one of them and obtain some pellets.  

I actually joined a lungfish forum one time in hopes of getting lungfish poop/photos for study. They must have figured I was nuts, and there were no takers. Luckily there was a fossil forum member that was happy to oblige. He hasn't been able to get one out without it falling apart, but has been kind enough to send photos and info.

52 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Lori, it sounds like the beginning of a science project. Buy a Giant African Millipede. Raise it on a diet of modern lycopod parts in order to obtain feces for analysis to compare it to fossils. 

Yeah...I actually just got back from Petco...lol. I wasn't going to buy one (yet), just hoping they would part with some droppings. No luck - no millipedes. I thought about going in the back yard to collect some small ones from under the wood pile. :D Alas, it will have to wait. My baby girl turns 30 this weekend so I have to work on her birthday celebration. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, GeschWhat said:

 Alas, it will have to wait. My baby girl turns 30 this weekend so I have to work on her birthday celebration

I fail to see why both goals can not overlap..... :D

Everything is generated through your own will power ~ Ray Bradbury
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...