Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Hello, TFF I was recently in Holzmaden, Germany when I found a piece of an octopus. I also recently read a book about octopus intelligence. This made me wonder if some prehistoric creatures might have been intelligent. I am especially interested in tool use, which has been observed in some modern animals. ( Octopuses, Cetaceans, Birds.) Has anyone found some possibly intelligent animals(fossilized?) It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted September 7, 2018 Author Share Posted September 7, 2018 Sorry that I put this in introductions. How can I move it? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrophyseter Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Welcome to the forum! As far as my knowledge on forum functionality does, only the staff can move threads around. But you can always ask them to do so anytime. If you're a fossil nut from Palos Verdes, San Pedro, Redondo Beach, or Torrance, feel free to shoot me a PM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Welcome from Germany. Your "octopus" part is probably a belemnite rostrum, correct? Octupuses are made up mostly of soft tissue, so fossils thereof are relatively rare. If you mean "intelligent" as "smart", then you need to study behavior, and for obvious reasons, it's difficult to determine that from a few scattered remains. How smart was Cro-magnon? Neanderthal? How do you prove that? Now please tell me how intelligent were the dinosaurs? They survived a lot longer than we have. Intelligence doesn't necessarily just mean "smart". Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 8 hours ago, Ludwigia said: the dinosaurs? They survived a lot longer than we have. Intelligence doesn't necessarily just mean "smart". Hey Roger, I hate this analogy because it compares a class (dinosaur) to a species (Homo sapien). Mammals have been around as long as dinosaur (even if You include birds). Sorry for the rant, just had to get it out. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 11 hours ago, Ludwigia said: They survived a lot longer than we have. Intelligence doesn't necessarily just mean "smart". Stupid people have been around for a long time also. I would imagine ancient creatures had the ability to adapt to situations just as much as modern ones can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 4 hours ago, ynot said: Hey Roger, I hate this analogy because it compares a class (dinosaur) to a species (Homo sapien). Mammals have been around as long as dinosaur (even if You include birds). Sorry for the rant, just had to get it out. You've got a very good point there. I guess I'm not as intelligent as I thought Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 I asked the man at the quarry if he was sure about it being an octopus and not a belemnite. He said that it was definitely an octopus. I thought he would know as he has worked at the quarry for 40 years although I still have my doubts.I thought it might be something similar to a squids pen although it is probably a belemnite. As for intelligence, octopuses have been recorded carrying both halves of coconut shells around with them. When they wanted to sleep, they put both halves together so it just looked like a random coconut was floating around. That is definitely smart. There have been countless examples of octopuses doing things like this. More can be read in the book "Soul Of An Octopus." A lot of Scientists think that octopuses probably evolved their intelligence when they lost their shell, as the only way to get away would be to hide or swim away. ( Unless they ink, and usually an Octopus would have to make the right choice of the three or die.) This would trigger natural selection. Only the smartest would survive. The earliest known octopus fossil is about 296 million years old. Intelligence would have probably evolved in the first one or two million years. Still, we can never be 100 % sure. It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 @Thecosmilia Trichitoma Do you have a photo of your octopus to show us? We may be able to give an ID even if other creatures are smarter. My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 Sadly, it is still at my grandpas house. I currently think that it might be part of a belemnite. As for Intelligence octopuses are the smartest invertebrates that I know, and they are believed to be smarter than dogs although hominids are smarter, and Homo sapiens are the smartest. It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 fossil octopoids from Kalkplatten(edit:lithographic limestones ): as far fossil octopoid behaviour* is concerned: possible octopoid (predatory)drill holes are known. *In no way equivalent to "intelligence" can recommend: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said: Sadly, it is still at my grandpas house. I currently think that it might be part of a belemnite. As for Intelligence octopuses are the smartest invertebrates that I know, and they are believed to be smarter than dogs although hominids are smarter, and Homo sapiens are the smartest. There's absolutely no question that octopuses are intelligent, so that could be extrapolated to their ancient ancestors. I was just asking how do you determine the intelligence of a fossil? Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Here is an interesting article from The Cephalopod Page that describes "intelligent" behavior of octopuses. http://www.thecephalopodpage.org/behavior.php My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Non-human intelligence generally comes down to problem solving, of which tool use is one form, and sophistication of communication. For example chimps sometimes fish for termites by stripping leaves from a twig and sticking the twig into a termite mound. Termite soldiers attack the "invader" stick so when the stick is pulled out it is coated in termites that the chimps can eat. Unfortunately all such tools produced by non-human are unmodified natural objects (such as stones used by sea otters to smash open clams) or lightly modified (such as twigs or thorns used to collect termites or ants). If fossilized, these objects would never be recognized as tools. Of course language (for example dolphin communication) also cannot fossilize. We might be able to infer that an extinct animal may have had some capacity for vocal communication by noting extreme enlargement of the auditory regions of the brain on endocasts, but all we would know for sure would be that processing sound was in some way important to them. Intelligence is behavior, and there aren't many fossils that provide evidence of complex behaviors of any sort. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 6 hours ago, Ludwigia said: . I was just asking how do you determine the intelligence of a fossil? A good clue is when they are holding an abacus . Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 "Unfortunately all such tools produced by non-human are unmodified natural objects (such as stones used by sea otters to smash open clams) or lightly modified (such as twigs or thorns used to collect termites or ants). If fossilized, these objects would never be recognized as tools." Research New Caledonian crows. It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Also, don't confuse intelligence with a species ability to "survive." That is not how evolution works. We can be the smartest and most adaptive critter on the planet but if the big one hits we are all probably toast. Same goes for disease. Who survives a plague may have more to do with the small fraction of the population that has some obscure gene, not who has the best hospitals. One thing for sure, hubris is strictly a human trait..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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