Red Flags With Kem Kem Pterosaur!

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

Unfortunately it is no news that we have suffered with several gross falsifications with "rooted" Carcharodontosaurids teeth from Kem Kem beds...

 

 

And these rooted forgeries do not even come close to the actual appearance that a rooted real tooth of Carcharodontosaurid must have:

 

 

Many novice collectors can also easily fall into the old trap: Spinosaurid tooth "rooted" from Kem Kem beds...

 

 

Which is also quite different from a real rooted Spinosaurid tooth:

 

 

But I have noticed since last year, a new fashion trend in the Counterfeit Market at Kem Kem ... The forgery of "rooted" Pterosaurs teeth! As for example, this gross falsification:

 

 

But what led me to create this post, it was definitely this clear forgery that was recently announced on our favorite auction site as: Coloborhynchus Tooth, Look:

 

 

 

My biggest fear is that a rookie collector with no experience can be seduced by a tempting offer of a so-called "rooted" pterosaur tooth that does not even come close to the real appearance a legitimate rooted pterosaur tooth should have:

 

 

My main theory is that two teeth were glued together to make one "rooted" tooth.

 

 

Whatever it has been made of, the fact is that this pterosaur's tooth is not rooted!!

Edited October 29, 2018 by Fossildude19
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[Seguidora-de-Isis]

And here's another item that caught my attention and I'm very worried about it! At our favorite auction site, this item is being advertised as: a pterosaur jaw bone!

 

Look:

 

 

 

 

This specimen is quite dirty, full of matrix, but I am strongly inclined that after clean, this may prove to be a fish jaw, but what I am now sure is that it is definitely not a Pterosaur jaw bone with teeth!

 

We can not forget that in the past a member of our forum was deceived by having bought a Pterosaur jaw, which was nothing more than a simple Cladocyclus jaw:

 

 

 

And things like that can discourage novice collectors, or worse still, generate a trauma for a lifetime!

 

Far from resembling a fish jaw, a genuine Pterosaur jaw with teeth, it is light and extremely elegant, presenting a rather distinct morphology ... Look:

 

 

 

 

The best weapon against misinformation is information! Study what you want to buy, try to be an expert of each item in your collection, and in doubt, post your question, that surely there is a battalion of people here willing to help.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Fossildude19
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[Jaimin013]

Thank you sir this is valuable information and the pictures really help to bring around the point to show others what a fabricated rooted tooth can look like. Thankfully I've gotten fairly good at spotting alot of fake roots on tedth especially those on carc teeth however there are many others that fall into the trap...hopefully the more information is out there on these fake roots the more people will recognise these. Thanks for sharing Douglas!

[LordTrilobite]

12 hours ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

And here's another item that caught my attention and I'm very worried about it! At our favorite auction site, this item is being advertised as: "Pterosaur jaw bone with teeth - Morocco-North Africa"!

 

Look:

This specimen is quite dirty, full of matrix, but I am strongly inclined that after clean, this may prove to be a fish jaw, but what I am now sure is that it is definitely not a Pterosaur jaw bone with teeth!

Definitely a fish jaw. I'd say likely Aidachar. Possibly even Aidachar pankowskii.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

51 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

Definitely a fish jaw. I'd say likely Aidachar. Possibly even Aidachar pankowskii.

 

 

Yes, it is definitely a fish jaw, possibly an Ayidachar pankowskii which is a very common species in the Kem Kem beds, but without a decent cleanup, unfortunately will continue to be just speculation.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

10 hours ago, Jaimin013 said:

Thank you sir this is valuable information and the pictures really help to bring around the point to show others what a fabricated rooted tooth can look like. Thankfully I've gotten fairly good at spotting alot of fake roots on tedth especially those on carc teeth however there are many others that fall into the trap...hopefully the more information is out there on these fake roots the more people will recognise these. Thanks for sharing Douglas!

 

You are welcome, my dear friend Jaimin. Actually our favorite auction site is full of traps like this, and the more we can train our eyes, the better it will be.

[Abstraktum]

Very interesting information about the latest red flags from Morocco. Thank you so much for sharing!

 

Well if we're talking about Pterosaur teeth from KemKem I might as well show this one off. 

 

This was part of a deal I did with a moroccan seller here at the fossil show last weekend in Munich. 

 

Are we talking about a Pterosaur tooth in the first place? Or something else? And is this tooth rooted or fake rooted? Looks good to me on first glance. 

Length is 3 cm (about 1.18 in). All I can say it's from Morocco...

 

I think there's a repaired crack in the middle of the tooth, but it fits perfectly so I dont think its a composit. You can see the crack at picture 3. It goes all around the tooth.

 

 

 

 

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

Hi, my dear friend Abstraktum. You are welcome! Many supposed "Pterosaur" teeth that I see for sale on our favorite shopping site, unfortunately are nothing more than fish teeth, especially Ayidachar fish and also Cladocyclus fish which are the most common and easily "confused" with pterosaurs...

 

But this is not the case for your tooth that is definitely of pterosaur because your tooth is evenly curved and consistently tapering:

 

 

In addition, on your tooth I also noticed an enamel cap at the crown, and only down is that the striae occur:

 

 

Beyond the fantastic wear bevel at the top smooth:

 

 

And to finish, the classic format uniformly oval in cross-section:

 

 

And added to all these features is that we can define what is definitely a genuine tooth of Pterosaur. Of course, there are rare exceptions, such as the tricuspid teeth of some pterosaur species, but this is not the case here, as these exceptions (Dsungeripterus, Pterosdaustro and some other species of pterosaurs) have not yet been documented in Kem Kem beds. Compare your Pterosaur's tooth:

 

 

With my Pterosaur's tooth that is deposited in my private collection:

 

 

And this proves that definitely an Ornithocheiridae family of Pterosaurs inhabited the region we now call Kem Kem beds.

 

 

 

Congratulations, you have a genuine tooth of Pterosaur Ornithocheiridae.

 

[Abstraktum]

That is a very impressive analysis of my tooth and it's just awesome. You know your stuff my friend.  

I just throw in 2 more pictures of both ends where you can see the oval end better.

 

 

 

 

This weekend was the big anual fossilshow here in Munich CLICK

The awesome part is, that there are so many sellers from Morocco. So you can buy directly from the local seller.

No second seller or online shops or stuff like that inbetween. That means prices are very low compared to the internet and you can find lots of good stuff.

But also many red flags. Lots of fake Mosasaur jaw. Fake roots on Spinoteeth and so on. So you really need a very good eye on the fossils.

 

This Petrosaur tooth was part of a deal about two awesome Spinotooth I wanted to get my hands on. 

Since I was dealing with moroccan people, bargain over the price was crucial for the best deal (like most of the time in the arab world). Was great fun.

At some point he didn't want to get any lower with the price, so I decided to stay with the price, but bring two more small teeth in the deal. One rostral barb from an Onchopristis numidus and this one I didn't even know for sure what it was. 

Well, I don't know. Beginners luck maybe, I got this tooth completely by accident 

 

And that's the Onchopristis numidus rostral barb. 

Isn't that a beauty  4cm or 1.57 in long

 

 

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

12 hours ago, Abstraktum said:

That is a very impressive analysis of my tooth and it's just awesome. You know your stuff my friend.  

I just throw in 2 more pictures of both ends where you can see the oval end better.

 

 

 

Thank you! We really should know what we like best, otherwise the chance to be cheated is too great! It's exactly this oval end on the pterosaur tooth I was talking about, and it's beautiful, thank you for showing! This annual Munich show must have been a wonderful event. Did you take photos of the event? If you took photos and wish to share with us, it will be wonderful to see. I was envious of you, being able to negotiate directly with the Moroccans the Kem Kem fossils, that is, you must have been able to buy with very good prices! Fake Mosasaur jaw? Hahahahah, it must not have been very different then from the Tucson Gem & Mineral Show, where there are hundreds and hundreds more of this kind of material, between compound teeth and carved trilobites ... But if you have a good eye, bargain!

 

Congratulations! Beautiful and wonderful Onchopristis tooth! I see you've done amazing business at the annual Munich show.

 

I have one here also deposited in my private collection:

 

 

 

This subject made me hungry. I'm going to have fish dinner today!

[Abstraktum]

Unfortunatly I don't have any pictures exept this one.

It's a Azhdarchidae indet., discovered a few years ago in Romania.

Every year there is one highlight fossil on display. 4 years ago they even had a full grown T-Rex (is now Berlin).

Most of the time they show newly discoverd fossils.

And boy, that's one giant Pterosaur There are two women right behind the skeleton. They stood right next to it. So it gives a good idea on how big this thing is.

It's around the same size as Quetzalcoatlus or Hatzegopteryx.

It was found in the same area as Hatzegopteryx, but is not a Hatzegopteryx, but closly related. The info sheet stats that it's still need to be properly described. 

 

But I looked up a few pics from Tucson and it's exactly like the Munich Show. Except there is way more stuff from Morocco. I would say in Munich where about 20 Moroccan Seller.

An these guys are selling there stuff like on an arab basar

If anyone wants to come: Munich Show is every year in the last October week. Next year its from 26 - 27 Ocotober 2019. Safe the date!

What is clear: Moroccan Seller don't care about any scientific value. The bigger the tooth, the higher the price. I think that's the only rule there.

Poor English and so it was kind of difficult to negotiate. Morocco was a frensh colony, so Frensh is still a thing in Morocco. I did a mixture of Frensh and English

With that being said, you can find awesome small teeth for very low prices.

I know we don't talk about prices normally here on this forum, but to give you an idea what the prices are if you buy directly from Moroccan Seller in Munich:

For my 4 tooth (2 Spino, 1 Ptero, 1 Oncho) I just paid 75 € (around 85 $).

 

So here are my two Spino tooth.

First one is 14 cm (around 5.5 inches). With a nice part of the root. With this big boy I'm most scared about red flags. Anyone sees anything there?

 

 

 

This one is around 9 cm (3.5 in)

There is a layer of sand around the tip. I could not remove it. That's suspicious#

But I really liked the color on this tooth.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

On 30/10/2018 at 4:58 AM, Abstraktum said:

Unfortunatly I don't have any pictures exept this one...

 

 

Oh! Beautiful Pterosaur! 

 

Hahahaha, but even on our favorite auction site is so, that is, the bigger the tooth, the higher the price. By the way, I think it's like this anywhere in the world. We do not really talk much about pricing here but at our favorite auction site it is also often possible to make great bargains, for example, I bought this whole lot for only 55 €! Look, what a nice lot:

 

 

Each person has their own method to find out if a tooth is 100% genuine, compound or is completely a fraud. In my case, I do the study based on the continuity of the lines. Then, seeing the two teeth:

 

 

 

 

 

So, I believe that both of the teeth you posted here are legitimate, although some points of the second tooth made me a bit uncomfortable:

 

 

But it is very important for me to explain to you that this method of following lines is completely error-prone, since good compositions can be considered, the coloring factor uniformly and equally in all parts of a tooth, and in can influence a good verdict. So, a good analysis can only be done personally, but on the internet, being away from you and seeing only photos, unfortunately I can only help by following the lines, analyzing strange ruptures and by coloration.

 

But in general, I congratulate you. I believe you made a great deal!

 

The tooth I have in my private collection of Spinosaurid is not very large, but it's cool I post here for comparison:

 

 

 

 

Note: I'm a long way from being an expert, but I learn every day, and strongly recommend that everyone try to know as much about the fossil they want to buy. Only then will the darkness of ignorance dissipate, and that which remains will be the light of wisdom.

[Abstraktum]

I see you got some good stuff as well and your Spino tooth looks also beautiful. No sand, no matrix no nothing, just the tooth itself. great 

 

That's an interessting idea with following the lines, will keep that in mind as well.

I think the best way is just to have as much oppinons as possible with different people having different approaches on the subject. So I'm thankfull for any advice

 

Yes, the second tooth is kind of suspicious, but I just loved the color of it, even though there might be a good amound of restoration in it. 

In the end, especially with stuff from Morocco it's always a bit of gambling to it. Unless you dig the stuff directly out of KemKem all by yourself 

But red flags can be anywhere. So never trust anybody blindly.

[Haravex]

In response to the last post, I find in morocco the Berber's might do a little restoration but I have yet to ever see one try and sell me a tooth where the root is nearly entirely fake you have to remember these people have very limited phone signal and internet is not a thing unless you get to merzouga, also as for the gamble I dont believe this to be true if you buy from a reputable seller as these people have their reputation to go on to try and make an honest living, and the saying goes if something sounds too good to be true it usually is, and the idea of buying a "fully rooted" tooth for 50 dollars is just asking for trouble.

[Pemphix]

On ‎29‎.‎10‎.‎2018 at 5:12 AM, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

 

But I have noticed since last year, a new fashion trend in the Counterfeit Market at Kem Kem ... The forgery of "rooted" Pterosaurs teeth! As for example, this gross falsification:

 

 

But what led me to create this post, it was definitely this clear forgery that was recently announced on our favorite auction site as: Coloborhynchus Tooth, Look:

 

 

 

My biggest fear is that a rookie collector with no experience can be seduced by a tempting offer of a so-called "rooted" pterosaur tooth that does not even come close to the real appearance a legitimate rooted pterosaur tooth should have:

 

 

My main theory is that two teeth were glued together to make one "rooted" tooth.

 

 

Whatever it has been made of, the fact is that this pterosaur's tooth is not rooted!!

 

Well, but do not forget: you'll get two for the price of one ....

[Tidgy's Dad]

Nice thread, my friend from so far away, very interesting and informative.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

38 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Nice thread, my friend from so far away, very interesting and informative.

 

Thank you for the compliments my dear friend from so far away! And this was precisely my goal because I realized that the "sector" of Pterosaurs is relatively vulnerable, where traps are plentiful, but unfortunately the information is scarce.

 

Huge hug!

[Tidgy's Dad]

1 hour ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

Thank you for the compliments my dear friend from so far away! And this was precisely my goal because I realized that the "sector" of Pterosaurs is relatively vulnerable, where traps are plentiful, but unfortunately the information is scarce.

 

Huge hug!

Huge hug back! 

And a fist bump for good measure.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

Update this Post:

 

This same and exact tooth:

 

 

That here, I did an exposition of all the problems that surround it, two days after this posting, the auction ended for US $178,00 Dollars! 

 

I do not know if the auction winner read this post and gave up buying, or what happened, but the fact is that this same tooth was put back for direct sale:

 

 

So my advice is exactly the same for novice collectors, do your homework, read and research a lot about it before you think about buying any fossils.

 

But at this point, what worries me, is this supposed Coloborhynchus pterosaur fossil claw, which was listed on our favorite auction site:

 

 

 

This is definitely not a Pterosaur's claw! It is only a fish scale, probably of the species Lepidotes pankowskii that like the pterosaurs, this fish also inhabited in Kem Kem.

 

 

Something interesting and one that can fool the novices is that the ends of the scales the Lepidotes fish, really can take on aspects of claws, as in this example that is deposited in my private collection:

 

 

So be careful when buying rare fossils like pterosaurs for example, without first doing a previous research. The traps are many, but correct information exists, just have the willpower to search!

[Zapsalis]

Thank you for the great info, @Seguidora-de-Isis!  I’ll have to keep this all in mind when I look at Kem Kem material next time!  

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

7 hours ago, Zapsalis said:

Thank you for the great info, @Seguidora-de-Isis!  I’ll have to keep this all in mind when I look at Kem Kem material next time!  

 

You're welcome my dear friend Zapsalis!

 

Many people are making money of what little we know about the Pterosaurs who inhabited Kem Kem. Sellers are quick to label, but it takes forever to provide proof of what they label.

[Tidgy's Dad]

Hello, my friend from so far away.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas.

Like the id on the Lepidotes.

And the fact that that 'pterosaur' item is back again is most interesting. 

Seasons hugs,

Adam. 

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

15 hours ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Hello, my friend from so far away.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas.

Like the id on the Lepidotes.

And the fact that that 'pterosaur' item is back again is most interesting. 

Seasons hugs,

Adam. 

 

Your heart is as great as your wisdom my dear friend Adam! 

 

I hope you had a Merry Christmas too. I also wish for you, my friend from so far away, a Happy and Prosperous New Year, with great health, peace, and thousands of fossils!

 

 

 

You're a great friend @Tidgy's Dad!

 

 

[DeepTimeIsotopes]

On 10/29/2018 at 3:53 PM, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

Hi, my dear friend Abstraktum. You are welcome! Many supposed "Pterosaur" teeth that I see for sale on our favorite shopping site, unfortunately are nothing more than fish teeth, especially Ayidachar fish and also Cladocyclus fish which are the most common and easily "confused" with pterosaurs...

 

But this is not the case for your tooth that is definitely of pterosaur because your tooth is evenly curved and consistently tapering:

 

In addition, on your tooth I also noticed an enamel cap at the crown, and only down is that the striae occur:

 

Beyond the fantastic wear bevel at the top smooth:

 

And to finish, the classic format uniformly oval in cross-section:

 

And added to all these features is that we can define what is definitely a genuine tooth of Pterosaur. Of course, there are rare exceptions, such as the tricuspid teeth of some pterosaur species, but this is not the case here, as these exceptions (Dsungeripterus, Pterosdaustro and some other species of pterosaurs) have not yet been documented in Kem Kem beds. Compare your Pterosaur's tooth:

 

With my Pterosaur's tooth that is deposited in my private collection:

 

And this proves that definitely an Ornithocheiridae family of Pterosaurs inhabited the region we now call Kem Kem beds.

 

Congratulations, you have a genuine tooth of Pterosaur Ornithocheiridae.

This is an impressive post with a great display of the power of deduction you have. Well done!

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

6 hours ago, UtahFossilHunter said:

This is an impressive post with a great display of the power of deduction you have. Well done!

 

Thank you my dear friend UtahFossilHunter.

 

I am not an expert, but Pterosaur fossils are my favorites, and to start my collection I had to study a lot on the subject, and even today I am learning a lot, but I do not like it when I see sellers taking advantage of novice collectors who can not access the scarce scientific material available.

 

A big hug here from your friend from Argentina!