Moroccan trilobite pair

[Max-fossils]

Hi all,

 

Saw this trilobite pair up on auction. Does it seem authentic? Maybe the spines have been added on (or sculpted on)? Also do you think that the two trilobites were found together like this, or is one of them added to the block?

These are all the pictures given, and there is no way to contact the seller. Hopefully the pictures are good enough!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Max

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Fossildude19
Remove advertisement copy.

[piranha]

1 hour ago, Max-fossils said:

...These are all the pictures given, and there is no way to contact the seller. Hopefully the pictures are good enough!

 

 

I would also be concerned about the percentage of restoration and want to know if these were composited. 

More importantly, if there is no way to contact the seller that should eliminate any consideration for purchase.

[gigantoraptor]

I don't know if this kind of posts is allowed, but I have bought from this seller several times and have never been disappointed before. It is the same seller from the other trilobite you posted.

[piranha]

35 minutes ago, gigantoraptor said:

I don't know if this kind of posts is allowed, but I have bought from this seller several times and have never been disappointed before. It is the same seller from the other trilobite you posted.

 

 

It would still be preferable to contact the seller if there are any unanswered questions.

[Tidgy's Dad]

Quite. 

I would be suspicious of this one. 

I would ask for close ups of the genal spines on both sides in particular. 

And I would want to see the underside, to see where it had been broken originally and if the bottom, at least, is one piece. 

[Raggedy Man]

3 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

, and there is no way to contact the seller.

This right there says all I would need to know. 

[aeon.rocks]

If this were from USA would you guys still share the same concerns? You guys are paranoid! 

 

Not sure where you are buying this, that you can't contact the seller...  But by the looks of these 2 bugs I would be mostly worried about the too cheap price that you might be paying for all the work that went into these (although not best quality of prep, still nice) and the other one..

 

Real trilobites! Not composited by the looks, doubt there is any (or much) restoration... Not sure why folks complicate with concerns on common cheap commercial bugs, which show authentic details. Pics could be better, but looks pretty much good, can't see any restored parts on pics at least! 

[piranha]

18 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

If this were from USA would you guys still share the same concerns? You guys are paranoid! 

 

 

You are making an incorrect assumption, in the same way you don't appreciate "everyone" that unfairly maligns all the so-called "fake" trilobites from Morocco.  I'm certainly not overly concerned because they come from Morocco.  The seller states "Perfect, 100% natural" but the genal spines look dubious on the arched specimen.  It would also be useful to see the reverse of the matrix to better determine if there was any compositing.  I would never consider purchasing from a seller that is not available to answer questions.  There are many other reputable sellers and authentic Moroccan trilobites to choose from.

[Tidgy's Dad]

Correct. 

We are not saying this is composted or faked, added together or heavily restored, but it makes sense to be certain. 

As I mentioned, the genal spines are at least a little uncertain and the reverse tells lots of tales. 

And when the seller can't be contacted one does tend to wonder. 

If this specimen were from the USA I would be asking the same questions. 

[piranha]

28 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

Not sure why folks complicate with concerns on common cheap commercial bugs, which show authentic details.

 

 

The point is the OP does have concerns.  Better to ask first than to be disappointed later. 

Remember, everyone has different levels of expertise when it comes to evaluating fossils.

[Fossildude19]

1 hour ago, aeon.rocks said:

If this were from USA would you guys still share the same concerns? You guys are paranoid! 

Is it really paranoia if they have, in the past, composited and restored trilobites?  

People who post here do have concerns, and many times they look to us for answers. 

 

I too would have reservations on buying something from a dealer or seller that was unreachable.  
That is just good common sense, ... not paranoia. 

 

 

[aeon.rocks]

1 hour ago, piranha said:

 

 

You are making an incorrect assumption, in the same way you don't appreciate "everyone" that unfairly maligns all the so-called "fake" trilobites from Morocco.  I'm certainly not overly concerned because they come from Morocco.  The seller states "Perfect, 100% natural" but the genal spines look dubious on the arched specimen.  It would also be useful to see the reverse of the matrix to better determine if there was any compositing.  I would never consider purchasing from a seller that is not available to answer questions.  There are many other reputable sellers and authentic Moroccan trilobites to choose from.

 

I agree about the questions part, but didn't see the description...It's clear from the pictures these are not perfect however. I wouldn't complicate about the genal spine tho, if mentioned in the listing, but that part looks unrestored to me. Looks missing! Would need better pics to confirm, but as said, description might be correct - I don't think paranoia is needed in case of these. Not composited either, I bet.

 

I know there are fakes... OP is right to ask questions! All I'm saying is, even if that spine is restored, people complicate to much, because in general they have no idea how trilobites are prepped and how many real bugs are found and prepped in Morocco. It's the same story over and over, concerns about fakes and restorations just because people hear one word: "Morocco"... Nothing against different levels of expertise!  If this was from USA OP probably wouldn't be interested in buying it, because of the much higher price...

 

Some all natural only megalodon collectors wouldn't even consider collecting trilobites, if they knew majority of what we consider 100% natural bugs are glued back together. Not blaming OP for the question.  

[Tidgy's Dad]

Not quite sure what you mean by the genal spines are missing rather than possibly restored.

The worry about the composition is not the trilobites themselves, but whether one has been added to face the other, which is very commonly done, the reverse view would help, though I've seen them inserted in ledges and crevices too. 

I think i have a pretty darned good idea as to how these are prepped and how they are faked; (I expect Mr Piranha has some idea, too!) I watch it being done on occasion. It's still rather difficult to tell for sure sometimes, I've been conned myself. 

The majority of bugs are not glued back together, though. 

[aeon.rocks]

Quote

The majority of bugs are not glued back together, though. 

Moroccan devonian bugs like this... 

 

Quote

Not quite sure what you mean by the genal spines are missing rather than possibly restored.

All is possible, not good enough pics to say. Could be damage in prep, missing or restored. imho could be what you see in pic below is partially burned shell. 

 

Quote

The worry about the composition is not the trilobites themselves...

 That is possible, but still, without good pics, all I'm hearing is paranoia, because it's prepped in Morocco. I guess that's the first thing new collectors learn on this forum.

 

Quote

I think i have a pretty darned good idea as to how these are prepped and how they are faked;

 

You're an experienced collector, not a beginner and I think you know pretty well there are plenty of real bugs in Morocco, not even worth faking. As for restorations - if those genal spines are all that's restored... Well, still probably too cheap to even make it count. Should be disclosed however!  

[piranha]

3 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

You're an experienced collector, not a beginner and I think you know pretty well there are plenty of real bugs in Morocco, not even worth faking.

 

 

I will reiterate:  The level of expertise to evaluate fossils varies from beginner to expert.  Questions are the path to enlightenment and knowledge.

[aeon.rocks]

Again, it's good OP asks questions! 

 

But I'm still confident in saying paranoia, sorry, because it's many other Moroccan bugs that people get paranoid here about too - like a perfectly authentic Metacanthina in the other post from OP, as we agree is real - what's there to worry about? Again, only because we know where it originates from! Imho. And again a beginner collector learns about fakes and worry.   

 

Quote

The most common type of fakery with this species is the carving of the spines and the addition of eyes where the originals are broken. 

Tentatively, I would say that this one looks pretty good to me, if I had a worry it would be with the eyes. 

Not sure. 

 

[piranha]

2 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

I'm still confident in saying paranoia, sorry, because it's many other Moroccan bugs that people get paranoid here about too - like a perfectly authentic looking Metacanthina in the other post from OP, as we agree is real - what's there to worry about? Again, only because we know where it originates from! Imho.  

 

 

Generally speaking, it is poor manners to characterize groups of people based on flawed assumptions, instead I would call it projection on your part. 

[aeon.rocks]

PS: Sorry, if I sound [rude]! Not meant to offend anyone... The thing is, it's good to be cautious, but be cautious about other people opinions too (including mine), there have been cases on this forum already in the past where perfectly real fossils were commented as fake - again paranoia - and OP missed the chance to get a real fossil... Based on those opinions. 

 

Quote

Generally speaking, it is poor manners to characterize groups of people based on flawed assumptions, instead I would call it projection on your part. 

 

Sorry, not meant to be [rude] again. But I would say it's a fact not a flawed assumption, if I say most people who start collecting fossils or don't collect at all, have in general no idea about preparation of trilobites... They might have read something somewhere about fakes however...

[Tidgy's Dad]

I live in Morocco. 

There are huge numbers of genuine and good quality trilobites from my adopted country that are available at reasonable prices and bonkers prices. 

But there are also a fair number of fakes, particularly of the rarer and more desirable species, or pieces that are perfectly genuine but fixed together in a single piece, or slightly 'improved' etc. 

Not offended, but for anyone to say for sure, "Yes, that's great, go buy it at once," well, that would be a little foolish, as you correctly say it is wise to be cautious, yes I have incorrectly assumed something's a fake in the past when it probably wasn't , yes OPs have missed opportunities, but it would be wrong of anyone to assure a buyer of a specimen's authenticity unless they were absolutely certain, and without the specimen in hand we can only judge on photos, and in this case I do not believe they are conclusive.  

[aeon.rocks]

Agree with all said, especially about bad pics (difficult to say anything for 100%) and doubts about contacting... I admit I might be biased also, when looking at Moroccan bugs, I start to ignore most fakes, fake Moroccan material is easily identified compared to more sophisticated fakes from China, and I don't find slightly improved trilobites (minor restoration) a problem (when info disclosed), nothing to worry or complain about there, such is reality of commercial bugs - not many naturally perfect or complete naturaly preserved ones... Trilobites are not megs!  I was just stating my opinion only and try to help and share my experience. It's good to have such discussions imho, we all learn from each other and hopefully OP benefits too! 

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

I don't like to intrude on controversial issues, but I usually keep away from fossils when there are several forms of payments, but there is no way to contact the seller. I just don't buy it.

[aeon.rocks]

Agree.

 

But controversial? 

 

We all prefer natural fossils, but there are few complete all natural fossils...  I'm sure we all hate to see fakes (when resold as the real thing)! But I think worries about minor restorations are unfortunately sometimes blown out of proportions and that is more destructive to the reputation of many Moroccan experts than it's to science, fossil-market and collectors. Often used to discredit Moroccan market. I mean, a glued fossil is just as important, beautiful or scientifically valuable and credible, as a non-glued specimen, but there are collectors who will complicate about that 1% of repair. Understand what I mean? This agenda can be problematic also, when Moroccan commercial contribution to the progress of palaeontology in the region (new species, specimens saved from destruction...) and popularisation of palaeontology (thanks to distribution of cheap common trilobites like in this post), gets considered as damage, contaminated data or confusing for science by protectionists: https://www.facebook.com/FosiliSlovenije/photos/a.1813620565324646/2078829522137081/?type=3&theater

 

 

[Kane]

Any and all restorations should be clearly indicated somewhere. There are a number of museum exhibits that have relative degrees of restoration from minor to major, which can be fine for a viewing public, but the curation of the collection would have noted somewhere the type and extent of restoration, and possibly photographic evidence of the specimen's pre-restoration state.

 

Ethically, disclosure of restoration is good practice. Certain species simply do not preserve very well due to taphonomic and depositional conditions, and some restoration for aesthetic reasons is not de facto a bad thing if the goal is to have a finely displayable piece. Again, full disclosure is fair.

 

I know preparators who also do excellent restoration work on specimens they sell, and it is certainly a skill within the broader skill set of preparation itself. The preparators I know and trust are up front about what was restored, and are willing to provide documentary evidence of the preparation process upon request. Such specimens command a higher premium for good reason. There may be a significant difference in buying a trilobite directly from a preparator who cleaves to ethical practices, and purchasing one from a reseller/distributor. 

[aeon.rocks]

Yes, that's what we all agree on.

[Fossildude19]

What we don't agree on is calling into question the authenticity, amount of enhancement, or the outright fakery of specimens.   

NOTICE - I AM NOT SINGLING OUT MOROCCANS. We understand your frustration about these issues.

 

Please don't take it out on us.  

 

We all get your point about the relatively inexpensive items sold by Moroccan dealers. We all understand the preparators there are under paid, and under appreciated.

We all get the fact that the problem is perpetuated by the American and European and in fact world wide resellers. 

 

THAT, ... however, ... we here have no control over. Other than to inform and educate. But for every person who posts here, how many don't and buy the items anyway?

 

I think it is counter productive, and condescending to label anyone who has a question about Chinese, Moroccan, American or European fossils paranoid.

This is a harsh term for people who have legitimate and justifiable questions about the composition of any fossil. Yes, many people do have no idea what they are talking about. 

However, characterizing them as paranoid is not right, or helpful.    Education is more helpful.

 

Americans paint fish fossils to make unremarkable/poorly preserved/unmarketable fossils more marketable. Moroccans are doing the same thing. Chinese are carving pteranodons, and lizards. Making resin "amber" or "copal"  lizards.   

 

I wish people wouldn't do this, but they do. I get that they need to sell inventory, and make money. And everyone is entitled to do this. Ethically done is better, but doesn't always pay the bills.

The chicanery involved in marketing these things as "100% Natural", or "No restoration", I feel is unethical and disingenuous.  People have a right to know what they are buying.

 

We are correct to try to inform people of what they may or may not be getting, and educating them about fossils, real, fake, restored, and otherwise,  is what we do here.

 

Please stop labeling people who have doubts as paranoid. You can help more by posting the informative types of articles as those above, than by generating bad will by name calling on the boards. 

Defensive or frustrated generalized labeling of people only breeds animosity and ill will. You will be taken less seriously if you take this approach.  

You are free to take this as an invitation to be part of the solution, or you can take the negativity of your statements elsewhere.   

 

We all want the same thing, we are all on the same side. But creating division with words is something we really do not want here. 

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.