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Crazyhen

Dinosaur Eggs, Genuine or Not?

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Crazyhen

These two eggs are from Henan Province, China.  Are they genuine or not?

 

 

Egg X : Photo 1-4

 

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IMG_6688.JPG

IMG_6685.JPG

 

 

 

Egg Y: Photo 5-7

IMG_6682.JPG

IMG_6683.JPG

 

IMG_6684.JPG

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aeon.rocks

I would go for em, tons of real eggs in China... But not sure, if 100% natural, because with all the fake posts here I'm starting to get just as paranoid about these as some are about Moroccan trilobites. :P

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Seguidora-de-Isis

The egg X, I'm absolutely sure it's genuine, but the Y egg I find suspicious, and it may not be genuine. Henan Province is a champion in China, in dinosaur egg fakes. So I won't be amazed if both eggs are fake.

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aeon.rocks

Same. X looks better... Henan is also a champion in real eggs tho. Problem is Chinese laws empower fakes-industry... 

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RJB

  Im with Seguidora on this one. 

 

RB

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caldigger

Although, egg X is the more genuine looking of the two, my spider senses are tingling.

So I will pass.

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aeon.rocks

Y looks wire-brushed, X looks like less cleaning was done. I'm paranoid (ok, not over-paranoid), but I would take risk. :D Nice ones!

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snolly50

Both pieces display the appearance of eggs I have prepped. That is, from the photos they seem genuine. "Y" does feature an odd surface, as previously noted. It does have a "brushed" look, which may merely reflect substandard prep in that area. If the price was tolerable I would be inclined to take a chance on "X". It is hard to tell, but I think I am seeing some random shell shards in the matrix, which suggests authenticity.  

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CBchiefski
1 minute ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

Every year that passes the forgeries are getting better, so I keep asking myself if we really should give explanations about why it leads us to believe whether an egg is genuine or not, rather than simply saying whether it is genuine or not without further explanation. We can not forget that the forum is public and anyone can be accompanying with great interest what we posted here.

Fair enough, I try to give the reasoning behind my statements but you are right to be concerned.  It is a difficult position, I am of the mind to give the "why" however I do limit what reasons I state in order to keep a few of the ways to discern fakes from those who produce them.  Sadly, there is not an ideal solution, we either limit the knowledge and information or we see better and better fakes.  O, alas.

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aeon.rocks

Don't you think forgers have access to authentic eggs and with better tools and equipment available to them they improve the process and they try to match originals? Sadly, i doubt they need to rely on informations written on TFF  for that process to happen, no matter if you make a doctorate from your opinions here or not. Fact is, we are all making a guess. Only the buyer, seller and forger of these will probably know the truth, unless you're an expert in making these or have seen dozens of real eggs and fakes in hand. So if I start getting paranoid, maybe Crazyhen is making these and posting here to see your opinions and how to fix them... :P 

 

Fact is though, open market doesn't see specimens like these often, it would if these were fake (or if export of fossils was not banned in China), that's just my opinion. I'm trying to get my hands on a nice Elongatoolithidae type egg (legally) for some time and although these Dendroolithus types are far more common and found by the dozens in China, it's difficult to see any for sale in international markets, at least like these...  But maybe prices drop for the few if more people starts to read these topics! These both look authentic! But to be honest, better photos are needed to say anything about authenticity without speculations or examination in hand.

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Seguidora-de-Isis
5 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

Don't you think forgers have access to authentic eggs and with better tools and equipment available to them they improve the process and they try to match originals? Sadly, i doubt they need to rely on informations written on TFF  for that process to happen, no matter if you make a doctorate from your opinions here or not. Fact is, we are all making a guess. Only the buyer, seller and forger of these will probably know the truth, unless you're an expert in making these or have seen dozens of real eggs and fakes in hand. So if I start getting paranoid, maybe Crazyhen is making these and posting here to see your opinions and how to fix them... :P 

 

Fact is though, open market doesn't see specimens like these often, it would if these were fake (or if export of fossils was not banned in China), that's just my opinion. I'm trying to get my hands on a nice Elongatoolithidae type egg (legally) for some time and although these Dendroolithus types are far more common and found by the dozens in China, it's difficult to see any for sale in international markets, at least like these...  But maybe prices drop for the few if more people starts to read these topics! These both look authentic! But to be honest, better photos are needed to say anything about authenticity without speculations or examination in hand.

 

I noticed that you use the word paranoia very much here in TFF, and this word gets a bit strange when it's used in a democratic environment, where each person has their own knowledge, and everyone can contribute their own ideas. But I am not here to judge or measure your words, after all, if the environment here is democratic, then you can use the word you want, including "paranoia." :P

 

Yes, I've seen hundreds of fake eggs, and dozens of real eggs, some people here at TFF know my collection, and I have enough experience to tell you that errors are pointed out here, months later, they try to correct these same mistakes, mainly with Malaysian eggs. @HamptonsDoc, @-Andy- and @CBchiefski know very well what I'm talking about here.

So it is not paranoia, it is almost a consummate fact full of bizarre cocidences. I know Crazyhen enough to make sure he would not do this, and he is unable to fool anyone. Besides, Crazyhen is a dear personal friend of mine.

But the fact is that we have specialists from a variety of areas here, and many take advantage of this to improve their forgeries so intensely that every year that passes, fakes become better, and more convincing because they are very realistic. Make TFF messages accessible only to registered members? The idea of our friend @Coco can be very good, but it is only a question for more debates, which surely can generate much controversy.

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aeon.rocks

Used it a few times in last few days only, didn't use it before and probably will not in the future, let's see. :P I don't think Crazyhen is doing that. Could be some manufacturers read this forum or that they are members, I don't dispute that. But then I guess Moroccans are the only ones who don't read TFF, since I didn't notice much improvement in their casts, the least they could do is stop leaving those ugly airscibe-marks on fake casts, the first signs of low-budget fakery. Or did none here point that out? :) As mentioned, materials, techniques and equipment are getting better, not just in preparation, but in fakes-industry too. Yes, it might be a coincidence, because more and more buyers complained? Possibly, because it's not difficult to find information about fake Chinese fossils online, here also. I think that's good - but information with arguments based on objective observation, not just based on personal bias or generalisation like: "a lot of fake eggs from China" or "a lot of fake trilobites from Morocco", which just creates more confusion for beginners. Because the truth is there are tons of real eggs in China (and real bugs in Morocco too).

 

I don't see a guide how to make a fake fossil egg here, nor discussions what materials are best to use so I think it doesn't hurt to argument like: "has a surface texture often seen with fakes, and one which is easy to reproduce so while alone it is only a warning, there is another major warning with this egg. Note the brushed look from the above pic, this tends to occur as tools shape the shell to give it a more natural look and in this particular case seems to be poorly done.  There are also at least 3 different locations where the eggshell ornamentation does not continue across the cracks.  Now, without getting too complex, the "brush look" can occur naturally as well but it tends to also be seen in the matrix and I see nothing similar in the matrix here."...

 

I think that's good, because that way beginners can learn to examine each specimen with observation, not just based on the country of origin and also helps to understand your opinion. Think it couldn't be brushed look from poor preparation, so possibly natural egg, maybe with some restored areas? This specimen looks way better as all confirmed fake eggs I have seen (and looks like it needs more prep) and to be honest, unprepared real examples have been marked as fake here before by many, so I am skeptic every time I read an opinion, which has no argument like that to back it up!

 

I could be wrong, don't follow all the posts here, but the progress to correct mistakes and fakes more convincing, very realistic, would happen without TFF... If you run that sort of business I'm sure you get better at doing it with time... 

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Kane
30 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

I don't see a guide how to make a fake fossil egg here, nor discussions what materials are best to use. 

And that is something we would never permit here, as a science-based forum with strong fidelity to the guiding principles of integrity and learning. :) 

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aeon.rocks

Actually, it's very instructional for all collectors to see how fake eggs are made, and nothing new for those who fake them, so if I think about it, I don't think that's a bad idea either. Here's a guide for megs, probably that's an exception to the forum policy. ;)

 

 

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Walt

A determined and dedicated forger would research a variety of sources to perfect his deceit. 

While TFF would certainly be the place to test the faked end product, why bother when even the most outlandish forgeries are quickly snatched up on "everyone's favorite auction site"?

IMHO, I tend to think that anyone wanting an opinion from TFF is a buyer and not looking for validation of how good their forgery is.

 

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aeon.rocks
1 hour ago, Walt said:

 

IMHO, I tend to think that anyone wanting an opinion from TFF is a buyer and not looking for validation of how good their forgery is.

 

Agree, and when buyers figure it out and that becomes a problem for sellers, it's only natural fakes evolve.

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Crazyhen

I didn't expect my post of eggs would spark such a constructive discussion, that's great! ;)

 

I am simply a potential buyer of the eggs and would like to seek views from my friends here on their authenticity.  Thank you my good friend @Seguidora-de-Isis for clarifying that for me, though I think @aeon.rocks is making a joke on me for posting here to get the expert views and make the fake eggs more perfect :P

 

I am not particularly worried about forgers reading information here to make their fake eggs perfect, at least not for the Mainland forgers, as I don't think they read TTF, not because TTF is not good but most of them don't read English :blush:

 

I agree Egg X looks more authentic, Egg Y seems dubious.  I was given to understand that Henan egg sellers often mix authentic eggs and fake eggs together and sell to unalert buyers.  I hesitate to buy the eggs without consulting my friends here at TTF.

 

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aeon.rocks
Quote

are we by giving reasons on an egg being real or not, enabling those who produce fakes?
 

 

Imho, no! Anthropic principle tackles a similar type of question in cosmology. ;) 

 

Crazyhen, please don't take that joke personal, i know you're not, but just tried to point out how skeptic we can get without good argumentation based on observation only. Not an expert neither and not underestimating the number of fakes worldwide, but it often seems like the number of real specimens is underestimated, unfortunately just banned to export...

 

 

Quote

I was given to understand that Henan egg sellers often mix authentic eggs and fake eggs together and sell to unalert buyers.  

Quote

 

 

Yes that's what I believe also. I agree with Andy.

 

Here is another great topic that might help to determine authenticity. Imho, arguments and mistakes revealed here, don't help producing the fakes with new information, some new fake eggs are really funny:

 

 

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Crazyhen
33 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

Imho, no! Anthropic principle tackles a similar type of question in cosmology. ;) 

 

Crazyhen, please don't take that joke personal, i know you're not, but just tried to point out how skeptic we can get without good argumentation based on observation only. Not an expert neither and not underestimating the number of fakes worldwide, but it often seems like the number of real specimens is underestimated, unfortunately just banned to export...

 

 

 

Yes that's what I believe also. I agree with Andy.

I know that's just a joke!

 

Yes, you are right, the number of genuine eggs is very large.  As far as I know, a large number of eggs are dug up from Ganzhou of Jiangxi Province.  For Henan, the number is less as the local control is quite strict there (and so they turn to produce fake eggs instead).  As I have shown earlier, sadly many eggs were destroyed as very rough methods like blasting are used to dig up eggs from the excavation sites.

 

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