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Dinosaur Eggs, Genuine or Not?


Crazyhen

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These two eggs are from Henan Province, China.  Are they genuine or not?

 

 

Egg X : Photo 1-4

 

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Egg Y: Photo 5-7

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I would go for em, tons of real eggs in China... But not sure, if 100% natural, because with all the fake posts here I'm starting to get just as paranoid about these as some are about Moroccan trilobites. :P

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The egg X, I'm absolutely sure it's genuine, but the Y egg I find suspicious, and it may not be genuine. Henan Province is a champion in China, in dinosaur egg fakes. So I won't be amazed if both eggs are fake.

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Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question!

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Same. X looks better... Henan is also a champion in real eggs tho. Problem is Chinese laws empower fakes-industry... 

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Although, egg X is the more genuine looking of the two, my spider senses are tingling.

So I will pass.

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Y looks wire-brushed, X looks like less cleaning was done. I'm paranoid (ok, not over-paranoid), but I would take risk. :D Nice ones!

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Both pieces display the appearance of eggs I have prepped. That is, from the photos they seem genuine. "Y" does feature an odd surface, as previously noted. It does have a "brushed" look, which may merely reflect substandard prep in that area. If the price was tolerable I would be inclined to take a chance on "X". It is hard to tell, but I think I am seeing some random shell shards in the matrix, which suggests authenticity.  

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

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On 11/6/2018 at 2:14 AM, Crazyhen said:

These two eggs are from Henan Province, China.  Are they genuine or not?

 

Egg X : Photo 1-4

IMG_6688.JPG

 

Egg Y: Photo 5-7

 

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I am in agreement with @snolly50 and @Seguidora-de-Isis on these two.

Egg x shows taphonomic deformation on the lower left of the pic I quoted and such an alteration is very rare in fakes. That said, it can be reproduced via man-made processes in a fake so just be wary. Sadly the pictures are not good enough to show the surface and so cannot make comment on that.

Egg Y has a surface texture often seen with fakes, and one which is easy to reproduce so while alone it is only a warning, there is another major warning with this egg. Note the brushed look from the above pic, this tends to occur as tools shape the shell to give it a more natural look and in this particular case seems to be poorly done.  There are also at least 3 different locations where the eggshell ornamentation does not continue across the cracks.  Now, without getting too complex, the "brush look" can occur naturally as well but it tends to also be seen in the matrix and I see nothing similar in the matrix here.

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51 minutes ago, CBchiefski said:

I am in agreement with @snolly50 and @Seguidora-de-Isis on these two.

Egg x shows taphonomic deformation on the lower left of the ...

 

Every year that passes the forgeries are getting better, so I keep asking myself if we really should give explanations about why it leads us to believe whether an egg is genuine or not, rather than simply saying whether it is genuine or not without further explanation. We can not forget that the forum is public and anyone can be accompanying with great interest what we posted here.

Unfortunately it is a double-edged knife, we have good will to teach and educate, but we may inadvertently be elaborating a primer for better forgeries. It's just something to think about.

Maybe we can teach by private messages? I don't know, but it's a good point for maybe debating.

 

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Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question!

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1 minute ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

Every year that passes the forgeries are getting better, so I keep asking myself if we really should give explanations about why it leads us to believe whether an egg is genuine or not, rather than simply saying whether it is genuine or not without further explanation. We can not forget that the forum is public and anyone can be accompanying with great interest what we posted here.

Fair enough, I try to give the reasoning behind my statements but you are right to be concerned.  It is a difficult position, I am of the mind to give the "why" however I do limit what reasons I state in order to keep a few of the ways to discern fakes from those who produce them.  Sadly, there is not an ideal solution, we either limit the knowledge and information or we see better and better fakes.  O, alas.

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Hi,

 

I think we must continue to give explanations to discern the fake or real fossils, and this in public, not in MP.

 

On the other hand, maybe this part of the forum could be seen only by the members, and not public ? Administrators, what do you think about that ?

 

Coco

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----------------------
OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici

Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici
Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici
Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici
Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici
Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici
Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici

Un Greg...

Badges-IPFOTH.jpg.f4a8635cda47a3cc506743a8aabce700.jpg Badges-MOTM.jpg.461001e1a9db5dc29ca1c07a041a1a86.jpg

 

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Don't you think forgers have access to authentic eggs and with better tools and equipment available to them they improve the process and they try to match originals? Sadly, i doubt they need to rely on informations written on TFF  for that process to happen, no matter if you make a doctorate from your opinions here or not. Fact is, we are all making a guess. Only the buyer, seller and forger of these will probably know the truth, unless you're an expert in making these or have seen dozens of real eggs and fakes in hand. So if I start getting paranoid, maybe Crazyhen is making these and posting here to see your opinions and how to fix them... :P 

 

Fact is though, open market doesn't see specimens like these often, it would if these were fake (or if export of fossils was not banned in China), that's just my opinion. I'm trying to get my hands on a nice Elongatoolithidae type egg (legally) for some time and although these Dendroolithus types are far more common and found by the dozens in China, it's difficult to see any for sale in international markets, at least like these...  But maybe prices drop for the few if more people starts to read these topics! These both look authentic! But to be honest, better photos are needed to say anything about authenticity without speculations or examination in hand.

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5 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

Don't you think forgers have access to authentic eggs and with better tools and equipment available to them they improve the process and they try to match originals? Sadly, i doubt they need to rely on informations written on TFF  for that process to happen, no matter if you make a doctorate from your opinions here or not. Fact is, we are all making a guess. Only the buyer, seller and forger of these will probably know the truth, unless you're an expert in making these or have seen dozens of real eggs and fakes in hand. So if I start getting paranoid, maybe Crazyhen is making these and posting here to see your opinions and how to fix them... :P 

 

Fact is though, open market doesn't see specimens like these often, it would if these were fake (or if export of fossils was not banned in China), that's just my opinion. I'm trying to get my hands on a nice Elongatoolithidae type egg (legally) for some time and although these Dendroolithus types are far more common and found by the dozens in China, it's difficult to see any for sale in international markets, at least like these...  But maybe prices drop for the few if more people starts to read these topics! These both look authentic! But to be honest, better photos are needed to say anything about authenticity without speculations or examination in hand.

 

I noticed that you use the word paranoia very much here in TFF, and this word gets a bit strange when it's used in a democratic environment, where each person has their own knowledge, and everyone can contribute their own ideas. But I am not here to judge or measure your words, after all, if the environment here is democratic, then you can use the word you want, including "paranoia." :P

 

Yes, I've seen hundreds of fake eggs, and dozens of real eggs, some people here at TFF know my collection, and I have enough experience to tell you that errors are pointed out here, months later, they try to correct these same mistakes, mainly with Malaysian eggs. @HamptonsDoc, @-Andy- and @CBchiefski know very well what I'm talking about here.

So it is not paranoia, it is almost a consummate fact full of bizarre cocidences. I know Crazyhen enough to make sure he would not do this, and he is unable to fool anyone. Besides, Crazyhen is a dear personal friend of mine.

But the fact is that we have specialists from a variety of areas here, and many take advantage of this to improve their forgeries so intensely that every year that passes, fakes become better, and more convincing because they are very realistic. Make TFF messages accessible only to registered members? The idea of our friend @Coco can be very good, but it is only a question for more debates, which surely can generate much controversy.

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Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question!

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Used it a few times in last few days only, didn't use it before and probably will not in the future, let's see. :P I don't think Crazyhen is doing that. Could be some manufacturers read this forum or that they are members, I don't dispute that. But then I guess Moroccans are the only ones who don't read TFF, since I didn't notice much improvement in their casts, the least they could do is stop leaving those ugly airscibe-marks on fake casts, the first signs of low-budget fakery. Or did none here point that out? :) As mentioned, materials, techniques and equipment are getting better, not just in preparation, but in fakes-industry too. Yes, it might be a coincidence, because more and more buyers complained? Possibly, because it's not difficult to find information about fake Chinese fossils online, here also. I think that's good - but information with arguments based on objective observation, not just based on personal bias or generalisation like: "a lot of fake eggs from China" or "a lot of fake trilobites from Morocco", which just creates more confusion for beginners. Because the truth is there are tons of real eggs in China (and real bugs in Morocco too).

 

I don't see a guide how to make a fake fossil egg here, nor discussions what materials are best to use so I think it doesn't hurt to argument like: "has a surface texture often seen with fakes, and one which is easy to reproduce so while alone it is only a warning, there is another major warning with this egg. Note the brushed look from the above pic, this tends to occur as tools shape the shell to give it a more natural look and in this particular case seems to be poorly done.  There are also at least 3 different locations where the eggshell ornamentation does not continue across the cracks.  Now, without getting too complex, the "brush look" can occur naturally as well but it tends to also be seen in the matrix and I see nothing similar in the matrix here."...

 

I think that's good, because that way beginners can learn to examine each specimen with observation, not just based on the country of origin and also helps to understand your opinion. Think it couldn't be brushed look from poor preparation, so possibly natural egg, maybe with some restored areas? This specimen looks way better as all confirmed fake eggs I have seen (and looks like it needs more prep) and to be honest, unprepared real examples have been marked as fake here before by many, so I am skeptic every time I read an opinion, which has no argument like that to back it up!

 

I could be wrong, don't follow all the posts here, but the progress to correct mistakes and fakes more convincing, very realistic, would happen without TFF... If you run that sort of business I'm sure you get better at doing it with time... 

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30 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

I don't see a guide how to make a fake fossil egg here, nor discussions what materials are best to use. 

And that is something we would never permit here, as a science-based forum with strong fidelity to the guiding principles of integrity and learning. :) 

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...How to Philosophize with a Hammer

 

 

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Actually, it's very instructional for all collectors to see how fake eggs are made, and nothing new for those who fake them, so if I think about it, I don't think that's a bad idea either. Here's a guide for megs, probably that's an exception to the forum policy. ;)

 

 

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As long as it is instructional to inform members of what to be on the look-out for, and not a primer for engaging in fraudulent behaviour, it is fine. The link you posted was about restoration, not outright faking (i.e., building from scratch). Restoration is entirely acceptable, with the caveat that if it is sold said restoration is communicated to the buyer.

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...How to Philosophize with a Hammer

 

 

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A determined and dedicated forger would research a variety of sources to perfect his deceit. 

While TFF would certainly be the place to test the faked end product, why bother when even the most outlandish forgeries are quickly snatched up on "everyone's favorite auction site"?

IMHO, I tend to think that anyone wanting an opinion from TFF is a buyer and not looking for validation of how good their forgery is.

 

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Everything is generated through your own will power ~ Ray Bradbury
 

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1 hour ago, Walt said:

 

IMHO, I tend to think that anyone wanting an opinion from TFF is a buyer and not looking for validation of how good their forgery is.

 

Agree, and when buyers figure it out and that becomes a problem for sellers, it's only natural fakes evolve.

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Very good points @Coco @Walt  and @Kane I would be interested to hear what others might be thinking on the matter.

 

@aeon.rocks Yes and no, without a doubt many of the top fakes were done with a real egg present or they would not be so frighteningly close to real eggs. That said, those producing the fakes could be watching these threads and potentially learning tricks on how to improve the fakes. Yes, most fakes sadly are bought with the buyer being clueless, but I like to think the forum has helped some buyers from being scammed. There are many made-man eggs sold as reproductions and I have no issue with that, the problem is those being listed and sold as real. A large aspect of the forum is to help educate, by educating we are helping many in the community. I think it is imperative to help show not just what is real or fake but give the why. For me the question becomes, are we by giving reasons on an egg being real or not, enabling those who produce fakes?
 

Do not claim to be an expert, and I have a great deal to learn. That said, I feel qualified to give a professional opinion on any eggs posted. I have peer-reviewed publications on dinosaur eggs, have seen and studied about 130 real eggs in person and several near perfect fakes. My advisor is David Varricchio and he is a true expert on eggs. Most of what I have seen in person are eggs from North America, but many were from China before the ban. There is no doubt that with only pictures we will be incorrect from time to time. Over the past few months, the community has largely agreed if an egg is real or fake and I think we tend to be correct. In all seriousness, the number of fakes worldwide cannot be underestimated. Again, do not think there is an ideal solution but think we should give some reasons while perhaps not saying everything about our reasoning. Would like to add, there are several on the forum, for example, @Seguidora-de-Isis and @HamptonsDoc who absolutely have a solid understanding of eggs and very often properly ID them.

 

In my mind, here is a decent example of how to give some reasons while not stating each detail or giving those producing the fakes any new information to work with.

 

Edited by CBchiefski
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I didn't expect my post of eggs would spark such a constructive discussion, that's great! ;)

 

I am simply a potential buyer of the eggs and would like to seek views from my friends here on their authenticity.  Thank you my good friend @Seguidora-de-Isis for clarifying that for me, though I think @aeon.rocks is making a joke on me for posting here to get the expert views and make the fake eggs more perfect :P

 

I am not particularly worried about forgers reading information here to make their fake eggs perfect, at least not for the Mainland forgers, as I don't think they read TTF, not because TTF is not good but most of them don't read English :blush:

 

I agree Egg X looks more authentic, Egg Y seems dubious.  I was given to understand that Henan egg sellers often mix authentic eggs and fake eggs together and sell to unalert buyers.  I hesitate to buy the eggs without consulting my friends here at TTF.

 

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are we by giving reasons on an egg being real or not, enabling those who produce fakes?
 

 

Imho, no! Anthropic principle tackles a similar type of question in cosmology. ;) 

 

Crazyhen, please don't take that joke personal, i know you're not, but just tried to point out how skeptic we can get without good argumentation based on observation only. Not an expert neither and not underestimating the number of fakes worldwide, but it often seems like the number of real specimens is underestimated, unfortunately just banned to export...

 

 

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I was given to understand that Henan egg sellers often mix authentic eggs and fake eggs together and sell to unalert buyers.  

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Yes that's what I believe also. I agree with Andy.

 

Here is another great topic that might help to determine authenticity. Imho, arguments and mistakes revealed here, don't help producing the fakes with new information, some new fake eggs are really funny:

 

 

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33 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

Imho, no! Anthropic principle tackles a similar type of question in cosmology. ;) 

 

Crazyhen, please don't take that joke personal, i know you're not, but just tried to point out how skeptic we can get without good argumentation based on observation only. Not an expert neither and not underestimating the number of fakes worldwide, but it often seems like the number of real specimens is underestimated, unfortunately just banned to export...

 

 

 

Yes that's what I believe also. I agree with Andy.

I know that's just a joke!

 

Yes, you are right, the number of genuine eggs is very large.  As far as I know, a large number of eggs are dug up from Ganzhou of Jiangxi Province.  For Henan, the number is less as the local control is quite strict there (and so they turn to produce fake eggs instead).  As I have shown earlier, sadly many eggs were destroyed as very rough methods like blasting are used to dig up eggs from the excavation sites.

 

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I'm late to this discussion...

 

Egg X looks nice to me.  Reminds me of some of the eggs I have in my collection that I purchased from a friend who got them in Tucson in the heyday of Chinese eggs in America, the 1980's.

Egg Y looks strange to me.  I don't understand the brush marks and this could just be a crude prep job as others have pointed out.  You seem to have access to many eggs so I would pass on this one as I'm not certain of its authenticity and you will find better ones around.

 

I have often wondered if the consistent improvement in fake eggs is related to our increased awareness of them and our open discussions about them here on the forum.  I'd like to think that this is not true and like others have pointed out above, most fabricators likely have real examples that they're basing their fakes off of and not off our discussions.  Its getting to the point that I'm really not sure about so many eggs I see on the auction sites anymore.  Its hard to tell without handling a specimen in person.  Pictures from anonymous people across the internet don't tell the whole story.  My most recent acquisitions have been from other collectors that I know personally and sellers that I have purchased from before.

 

I do not think we should scale back on our reasons of why we feel a certain fossil is genuine or not as that is the only way to promote learning on the forum.  I think the more we discuss and give our opinions about fossils the better.  If only we had a few wealthy enthusiasts who could buy examples of all these eggs we question here to disassemble them a post their findings...

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