Plantguy Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Hoping someone easily recognizes these and its an easy answer...my initial searches have been fruitless... So I was supposed to be looking for more Florida coprolites in the garage piles of fossils and got sidetracked looking as this large Turbinella columella and just noticed these tan circular markings on it and wanted to know if they were traces of serpulids? Probably Pliocene Tamiami formation, Sarasota County, Florida. Whats fascinating to me is their spiral?/concentric, ornamented/segmented? shape which appears to actually be etched into the gastropod shell itself. Almost look like cross sections of forams. I've scraped a number of the small white serpulid tubes off thinking I'd see a similar pattern but there is no marking beneath them--its perfectly smooth. If it is a tube, I wasnt aware that they could actually score the surface of the gastropod shell--seems pretty neat if thats what going on but maybe its something entirely different. The gastropod, aside from being badly damaged has sponge borings, barnacle and coral encrustration, and serpulid tubes. Most of the circular traces are around 1mm in diameter and a few push the 2 or 3mm size. Thanks for the help! Regards, Chris 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 I suspect the perpetrators were juvenile gastropods which fled the scene before the the others arrived. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Rockwood said: I suspect the perpetrators were juvenile gastropods which fled the scene before the the others arrived. Thanks! I thought about a different encrusting event/activity and as you mention gastropods..hmm...wondering since we do have lots of Vermetidae, Petalochoncus or one of the others now comes to mind--I sure overlooked those guys. I think @MikeR also recently posted a bunch of these types in one of his galleries. I wonder whether their is an actual trace name for them. Good deal. Appreciate the comments! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentx Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 It looks like something took up shelter in existing bored holes and fed in a rotating pattern around the hole. Another one-of-a-kind find of yours and most intriguing. "Journey through a universe ablaze with changes" Phil Ochs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 The small holes might be from a sponge such as Cliona. The larger disturbed areas are pretty interesting and distinctive. Someone should know what they are. They have the same pattern of spirals that the seeds in a sunflower head have. Maybe they are attachment scars of a spiraled organism. https://momath.org/home/fibonacci-numbers-of-sunflower-seed-spirals/ 5 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeR Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 They look bryzoan other than they appear to be etched. Roger Portell is good with these types of identifications and he is pretty good at answering back if he is not out of the country. 1 "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentx Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said: That's the exact pattern I am seeing. An attachment trace may be the thing here. "Journey through a universe ablaze with changes" Phil Ochs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilnut Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Fascinating. Good eye/better brain. I will follow, please post any further info. Will have to check my material I lucked onto a few years back. Broken pieces sometimes have more stories to tell. We too often discard in search of the perfect. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 4 hours ago, MikeR said: They look bryzoan other than they appear to be etched. Perhaps bryozoans that were chemical borers ? The ancestrula gaining access by a sponge boring and successive zooids creating individual openings to the surface after forming laterally in the shell. That surface has now worn away leaving the exposed zooicea of the colony. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentx Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, Rockwood said: That surface has now worn away leaving the exposed zooicea of the colony. Microscope might give evidence of that. "Journey through a universe ablaze with changes" Phil Ochs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 It's a very interesting topic. I can't go further before remembering A. Seilacher's great research. link " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentx Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, abyssunder said: A. Seilacher's great research. link Wish I could get your link to work. Instead I get this message: "Your session has timed out. Please go back to the article page and click the PDF link again." "Journey through a universe ablaze with changes" Phil Ochs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Innocentx said: Wish I could get your link to work. fixed 2 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 Thanks all for the info/comments/link! I'll shoot a note to Roger Portell and let you all know if he can nail it. I do wish I had a scope/camera setup that could capture the detail I can see.... Besides the crazy pattern its interesting to see how some seem to center/spiral around a single sponge bore hole and others seem not to show that feature. The more I look at this specimen the more things I notice...seems to also have a couple very small different corals and bryozoans as well. @miker @rockwood @DPS Ammonite @Innocentx @fossilnut @abyssunder Regards, Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 42 minutes ago, Plantguy said: I do wish I had a scope/camera setup that could capture the detail I can see.... Have you tried to shoot picture thru a hand lens or microscope? 1 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 6 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said: Have you tried to shoot picture thru a hand lens or microscope? Thanks for the link..good stuff. I'm really envious of that last Dinolite photo in the thread. Oh dang that would be cool! The not so short answer is yes I have tried hand lens with some of these photos but no microscope access recently. There was a cheap USB scope awhile back but that didnt do much. Many many moons ago I got to use some different Nikon scopes when viewing specimens and then making thin sections of them which scarred me for life/aka really spoiled me. I now unfortunately break stuff and or lose good stuff to often and my current cheap cell phone and hand lens aint doing it for me for the really tiny stuff. That may be a blessing in disguise as I'd be looking at even more stuff I dont need to spend time on. The current plan with budget permitting and no time frame assigned and no major car maintenance impacting that time frame is to go back to a better samsung phone with macro lens attachment and use the stacking program I downloaded and havent used...minor inconveniences in the grand scheme of this crazy world. Thanks for the encouragement. Its frustrating to see this really cool stuff and not be able to share the micro details with you all. Maybe in the not so distant future. Regards, Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 I got a reply from Dr. Roger Portel and I have another trace fossil name to go read/learn about!! The specimens on the columella are polychaete worms (genus Spirorbis). The traces that these worms leave are called Treptichnus. Thanks for all your inputs! Regards, Chris @MikeR, @DPS Ammonite, @Innocentx, @fossilnut, @abyssunder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, Plantguy said: The traces that these worms leave are called Treptichnus. No politician answers will be accepted here. The picture does show the trace and the maker ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentx Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Always good to get informed answers. "Journey through a universe ablaze with changes" Phil Ochs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rockwood said: No politician answers will be accepted here. The picture does show the trace and the maker ? I did in my reply ask about the fact whether there might be different sets of trace makers. The Spirorbis tubes that are there are much smaller and some overlap/are offset from the beige traces...There are no tubes left that are the same size of the beige traces. If I hear any more I'll update...Good question! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Spirorbis, as far as I know, etch the surface of the substrate to settle down and make a colony. Probably the deepness of etching is a marker of hardness of the substrate and the maturity of the encrusting worm. From beginning, I thought it may be the result of encrustation of Spirorbis, but I put that idea aside considering what you said - " I've scraped a number of the small white serpulid tubes off thinking I'd see a similar pattern but there is no marking beneath them--its perfectly smooth. " Thank you for the update, Chris! 2 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 On 11/19/2018 at 8:57 PM, abyssunder said: Spirorbis, as far as I know, etch the surface of the substrate to settle down and make a colony. Probably the deepness of etching is a marker of hardness of the substrate and the maturity of the encrusting worm. From beginning, I thought it may be the result of encrustation of Spirorbis, but I put that idea aside considering what you said - " I've scraped a number of the small white serpulid tubes off thinking I'd see a similar pattern but there is no marking beneath them--its perfectly smooth. " Thank you for the update, Chris! Yep, I wish I could get some decent photos to show you the areas of the larger etchings appear which seem to be where the top layers of the gastropod shell have been removed. I dont know if they selected that area to begin with or created it? I've scraped 15-20 of the smaller tubes off and they are mostly on the pristine/unaltered shell areas. I think I can see very faint etchings in a few of them--but most show no ecthing/alteration beneath them at all---sorry for the misleading observation. Thanks for the help. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 On 11/23/2018 at 6:07 AM, Plantguy said: Yep, I wish I could get some decent photos to show you the areas of the larger etchings appear which seem to be where the top layers of the gastropod shell have been removed. I dont know if they selected that area to begin with or created it? I've scraped 15-20 of the smaller tubes off and they are mostly on the pristine/unaltered shell areas. I think I can see very faint etchings in a few of them--but most show no ecthing/alteration beneath them at all---sorry for the misleading observation. Thanks for the help. Regards, Chris Chris, do you think there's enough resemblance between your specimens and the ones shown below, to say they might be similar? Scale bards are 1mm. 2 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 21 hours ago, abyssunder said: Chris, do you think there's enough resemblance between your specimens and the ones shown below, to say they might be similar? Scale bards are 1mm. Great photos! Does that have a species level Treptichnus name and perhaps a description? They are very very similar and I think you have the ID but Im not sure I'm qualified to say they are the same. Maybe you already can. If I could give you some real sharp photos of a bunch of them to rule out any differences you could probably say for sure. But I think I've taken about 200 pics thus far in natural light/inside and out and I'm still producing lousy fuzzy pics unfortunately...lol. Its interesting to see that some are perfect spiraling circular forms but others that look like they had problems attaching/etching the shell and are oddly shaped forms...I highlighted a few of those with yellow arrows and with red arrows showing some of the still existing smaller tubes that appear to be on top of the earlier etched traces. Does the article from whence these photos came by any chance say what caused the sinuous shape and lack of detail in the areas outlined with the white dashed lines? Is that from some irregular attachment surface they've developed on or from something else? Curious about the age and formation/locale as well. Thanks again!..I'm gonna consider that you got this nailed. I honestly think I'm going cross eyed squinting/looking at these thru my transition glasses, the magnifying glass and at my fuzzy photos. Have a great rest of your weekend! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 (edited) Hi, Chris! Your photos are great, but these creatures are tiny. I was guided by your observation (" Almost look like cross sections of forams."), so I've checked that possibility. There exist bioerosion caused by foraminiferans, but in rare cases are they the single bioeroders in the concurrency of occupying a hard substrate, such as a gastropod. Your gastropod has tube worm, coral, barnacle, and what I think - foraminiferan encrustation, not saying that sponges made the most ruining work. Their settlement was made in different time periods, that may be the reason why a serpulid worm is on the top of a previously settled organism, nicely highlighted by you. The picture I used shows two split tests of Orbitoides penetrated by Curvichnus semorbis igen. et isp. nov., having as trace-maker another foraminifer, possibly Talpinella cunicularia, nicely described in J.K. Nielsen. 2002. Borings formed by Late Cretaceous endobiontic foraminifers within larger benthic foraminifers. Acta Palaeontologica Polonica 47(4): 673-678 . In addition, I can supply an encrusting basal surface of a Spirorbis group (for comparative reason) which may not resemble the "scars" in question having the "sunflower" pattern. excerpt from B. Granier & R. Boichard. 2017. Sedimentological investigation on Holocene deposits in the Mussafah channel (Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates). Carnets Geol. 17(3): 39-104 Have a nice weekend! Edited November 25, 2018 by abyssunder 2 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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