Finders Keepers?

[Shellseeker]

Reading the morning news, found this article: http://www.realclearlife.com/books/inside-illegal-unethical-world-owning-dinosaur-bones/

Quote

RCL: In your research, did you find that it’s more of a Western thing that we believe that we’re entitled to fossils (the finders-keepers mentality, as well as the collecting of fossils)?

PW: The finders-keepers idea plays out uniquely in the United States. No other country allows hunters to keep whatever dinosaur bones and teeth (or other fossils) they find on their own property, or on land where they have permission to collect. Public lands are off limits—it’s illegal to collect most fossils on federal property, such as the national parks. The concept of finders keepers seems to have appeal around the world, though.

 

Well, we have lots of fossil hunters from lots of countries.  This seems untrue to me... sort of fake news.  What say you all?

[Tidgy's Dad]

As far as I'm aware, in Morocco you certainly get to keep whatever you find on your own land and public lands or where you have been allowed to collect. I have never heard of the state interfering in this, though there has been talk. Sometimes they will try to recover valuable specimens sold abroad under heritage laws, but whatever you find is yours, in my experience. 

[Arion]

Yup, this is false; not sure where she got this idea from. Some inaccurate journalism here, not a good look.

[indominus rex]

This definitely doesn’t apply to places like Holzmaden. You can keep all the ammonites and Belemnites you can find there.

[Miocene_Mason]

This article is wrong in more ways than one. I’d just disregard it.

[ynot]

2 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

This article is wrong in more ways than one. I’d just disregard it.

Yes it is sorely wrong. The problem with this type of misinformation is that the people that are unfamiliar with fossils do not know it is a bunch of (poop) and will act as if it is a factual situation.

It puts another brick in the wall between collectors and the sites they like to collect at.

[Ludwigia]

This truly is fake news. Balderdash!!

[SailingAlongToo]

11 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Reading the morning news, found this article: http://www.realclearlife.com/books/inside-illegal-unethical-world-owning-dinosaur-bones/

 

Well, we have lots of fossil hunters from lots of countries.  This seems untrue to me... sort of fake news.  What say you all?

 

There is / was an obvious "agenda" with the obviously leading question. Poor journalism.

[Shellseeker]

Just to wrap this up a little.  As I looked at the article, it was a review of a Book, It does not sound like a very well crafted book , just by the statements of the author.

My initial thought was the Staffordshire Hoard find, which was officially valued at £3.2 million. They had to pay taxes but the owner got to keep/sell the hoard as opposed to the government confiscating it. 

Why should a valuable fossil be any different?

 

[caldigger]

Makes you want to run out and get a detector!

 

[Uncle Siphuncle]

Finders-keepers breeds elective generosity, both with individuals as well as institutions.  Sounds like the writer needs to relax to indulge in the manifold benefits of personal gain.

[SailingAlongToo]

9 minutes ago, Uncle Siphuncle said:

Finders-keepers breeds elective generosity, both with individuals as well as institutions.  Sounds like the writer needs to relax to indulge in the manifold benefits of personal gain.

I'm pretty sure the intended "agenda" was to belittle & besmirch "personal gain" & greed.

[Dan 1000]

In Australia you are allowed to keep anything you find on your own land or public sites (Excluding crown land). In Cooper Pedy and Lightning Ridge collectors who come across very rare opalised dinosaur fossils are allowed to keep. One example is of Eric, an opalised pilosaur fossil (Not a dinosaur but pretty close ) was discovered by an opal miner on his claim. Since he found it on his claim, the fossil was his. The Australian Museum paid the miner for Eric and he is currently on display at the Museum.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

4 minutes ago, SailingAlongToo said:

I'm pretty sure the intended "agenda" was to belittle & besmirch "personal gain" & greed.

Agreed.  The writer should lurk this forum and observe the giving and donations at play.  Could alter their perspective.

[DeepTimeIsotopes]

2 minutes ago, DanKurek said:

In Australia you are allowed to keep anything you find on your own land or public sites (Excluding crown land). In Cooper Pedy and Lightning Ridge collectors who come across very rare opalised dinosaur fossils are allowed to keep. One example is of Eric, an opalised pilosaur fossil (Not a dinosaur but pretty close ) was discovered by an opal miner on his claim. Since he found it on his claim, the fossil was his. The Australian Museum paid the miner for Eric and he is currently on display at the Museum.

This is how it should be in my opinion. Of course, special areas can be set aside for special case fossils but a lot of us would do the same in his situation or even flat out give it away because we'd like to others enjoy it as well. There's not a lot of greed in this community.

[caldigger]

Dan K. you got my curiosity up so I found a snipet from The Australian Museum website so others could see "Eric" as well.

 

[ynot]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

the owner got to keep/sell the hoard as opposed to the government confiscating it. 

I heard that the English government bought the hoard after it was evaluated, and they paid the landowner half and the finder got the other half of the appraised value.

I think the hoard is now in a museum in London.

[erose]

Actually a more balanced article than that single quote projects. She describes the folks causing harm as "poachers" and they do exist. The argument is made to leave all vertebrate material (dinos) to the scientists. But she also does clearly state that without the efforts of the rest of us not nearly as much would be discovered. The argument about collecting will continue and we will see what comes of it in the years ahead. 

 

The blanket statement about only the USA giving land owners exclusive rights to what they find is just wrong (as others here pointed out) and muddies the issue. In this country pretty much anything you find on your own property is yours with but a few exceptions (mostly regarding human remains) and that is just the way it is. All other locations such as public lands already have rules and restrictions and what is legal and illegal should be well understood. 

 

Sadly unethical behavior comes in all forms and when a large important fossil is poached, smuggled or stolen and sold for pure monetary gain it hits close to home for us. 

 

 

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, erose said:

Sadly unethical behavior comes in all forms and when a large important fossil is poached, smuggled or stolen and sold for pure monetary gain it hits close to home for us. 

 

Good balanced analysis. For most contentious topics, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[erose]

Almost all professional and amateur paleontological organizations have "codes of conduct" that suggest proper behavior and the need to make important discoveries known to working paleontologists.  On occasion the subject has been discussed and examples provided here on the FF.

 

My personal experience with unethical behavior has been more along the lines of over-collecting from commonly collected "public" sites (and then selling the fossils), littering and/or vandalism of sites where the landowner allowed collecting (but then rescinded the access because of such behavior) and in one case promising to not publish on a fossil that was being worked on by others* and then publishing anyway. And then we can discuss the whole world of fake or mostly restored fossils being sold and so on.

 

And yet all are anecdotal and by no means the norm. 

 

* ICZN Appendix A: Code of Ethics