Ammonoids from Carniol

[Max-fossils]

Hi everyone,

 

Should've posted these a LOOONG time ago, but me being the lazy guy I am I forgot to do so till now 

Anyways, here goes. 

These were all found by me (/my family) in the Carniol clay banks in southeastern France. They are (heavily for some) pyritized. 

They are from the "Gargasian", Aptian stage, Cretaceous. 

Would love to hear the species name of them. Genus is still fantastic. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Max

 

#1:

 

[Max-fossils]

#2

Identified as Phylloceras already by the amazing @Ludwigia, but is it possible to stick a species name to them?

 

[Max-fossils]

#3

Same dimensions as the Phylloceras, but two striking differences: this one doesn't have (visible) suture lines, and has many very thin little lines radiating straight out of the center (the photo barely catches them)

[Max-fossils]

#4

This one has me stumped. It's covered up by pyrite crystals (much more than any other. But that's just a cool fact about it). I actually can't tell if this is an Aconeceras nisus ammonite that has been crushed so that the chambers have "shifted", or if the lines are some kind of separation between the chambers. This confusion comes from the separation: I find them too precise to be the cause of geological processes, but also too imprecise to be of species origin. What are your thoughts?

 

[Max-fossils]

#5

And finally this one, one of my favorites of the hunt. I really can't tell which species it is. 

 

[Max-fossils]

I'll call in some of the experts @TqB @FossilDAWG, Roger (tagged before), @PFOOLEY @Heteromorph @caterpillar

 

I realize now that all my pictures are pretty bad... If there are any that I need to retake let me know!

[Misha]

I myself can't identify these, but either way they are nice finds.

[Max-fossils]

2 minutes ago, Misha said:

I myself can't identify these, but either way they are nice finds.

Thanks! You might enjoy taking a look at the trip report I made: 

 

[Heteromorph]

Lovely cephalopods! Sorry, but species level identification of these guys is over my head. But I know those with more knowledge of your fauna can help you. 

 

Of course, if you happen to come across some late Cretaceous ammonites from the Western Interior Seaway (preferably Texas), holler my way! 

[gigantoraptor]

16 minutes ago, Max-fossils said:

#5

And finally this one, one of my favorites of the hunt. I really can't tell which species it is. 

 

Very nice one, maybe Hypophylloceras paquieri?

[Max-fossils]

1 minute ago, gigantoraptor said:

Very nice one, maybe Hypophylloceras paquieri?

Thanks, but I think No:

That species seems much flatter than mine is. My specimen is very "bulky", or fat. Plus the patterns don't match very well...

Might be from the same family though!

[Max-fossils]

6 minutes ago, Heteromorph said:

Lovely cephalopods! Sorry, but species level identification of these guys is over my head. But I know those with more knowledge of your fauna can help you. 

 

Of course, if you happen to come across some late Cretaceous ammonites from the Western Interior Seaway (preferably Texas), holler my way! 

Haha okay, no problem. I'll remember to give you call once I do stumble upon some of them (hopefully that will be soon!!!)  

[Innocentx]

The pattern of color on #5 is quite beautiful!

Good luck with ID.

[Max-fossils]

Quote

Aconeceras,

Argonauticeras,

Eogaudryceras,

Gabbioceras,

Goretophylloceras

Hypophylloceras,

Jauberticeras,

Melchiorites

Phyllopachyceras,

Protetragonites,

Pseudohaploceras,

Salfeldiella,

Sinzowia,

Uhligella,

Valdedorsella,

Zuercherella,

are typical "Bedoulian"-to "Clanseyesian" ammonites

This is a list of possible genera for my ammonites, given by @doushantuo. 

I would say that both Goretophylloceras and Hypophylloceras are great possiblities for my #3. 

[Max-fossils]

2 minutes ago, Innocentx said:

The pattern of color on #5 is quite beautiful!

Good luck with ID.

Thank you! And agreed. I'll try to take some better pictures of it soon to better capture the fantastic array of rainbow colors. I doubt my camera will be able to do effectively, but I can tell you that in person this little critter is a fireworks show!  

[caldigger]

28 minutes ago, Max-fossils said:

Thanks, but I think No:

That species seems much flatter than mine is. My specimen is very "bulky", or fat. 

It is widely known that the family of ammonoids from the late Cretaceous in that area suffered from bad eating disorders and thusly were obese.  All that buttery French cooking was likely the cause of their ultimate demise. 

[Max-fossils]

10 minutes ago, caldigger said:

It is widely known that the family of ammonoids from the late Cretaceous in that area suffered from bad eating disorders and thusly were obese.  All that buttery French cooking was the cause of their ultimate demise. 

Wow, you really do learn something new every day! 

That meteorite theory seemed silly to me the minute I heard about it. This explanation is much more probable and definitely more down-to-earth. 

[Ludwigia]

Here's my 2 cents worth:

1. Holcophylloceras sp.

2.Phylloceras serum perlobatum

4. Hypophylloceras paqueiri

[Wrangellian]

The thin radiating lines on #3 are consistent with the outer ornamentation on a Phylloceratid.

[KimTexan]

Lovely specimens

 

Can’t help with specifics on ID, but this may be helpful in learning terms for important anatomical features.

I don’t know if you have resources for ammonite terminology. 

These are a few pics from a book I have: Texas Cretaceous Ammonites and Nautiloids. That has been so helpful to me. The terminology is incredibly complex. The book has 25 pages with diagrams for characteristics, measuring and identification and terminology.

These are a few that I thought you might find helpful for basic anatomy and suture terms.

 

 

This characterized the ribs.

 

These are a small number of suture terms. There are many more besides these just for sutures. Basically if you can see sutures, my understanding is you can come pretty close to the species.

 

Should you find any with tubercals this may be helpful.

[Max-fossils]

@KimTexan that's some fantastic info! That's a lot of ammonite terminology I was missing on... 

Thank you!

 

19 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

Here's my 2 cents worth:

1. Holcophylloceras sp.

2.Phylloceras serum perlobatum

4. Hypophylloceras paqueiri

Thanks Roger!

 

16 hours ago, Wrangellian said:

The thin radiating lines on #3 are consistent with the outer ornamentation on a Phylloceratid.

Thanks for the info!  

[Max-fossils]

Alright, so according to this website that @Manticocerasman gave, plus the info I got from you guys here, these seem to be (imo) the best IDs so far:

 

1) Holcophylloceras paquieri? 

Are Hypophylloceras paquieri and Holcophylloceras paquieri synonyms? if so, which one is the currently accepted name?

Also, I think that my ammonite is a little bit thicker than the images I see online:

 

Is that a normal difference between intraspecies specimens?

 

2) Phylloceras morelianum

 

3) Phylloceras morelianum

 

4) ???

 

5) Salfeldiella guettardi ?

[herve]

Hello ,J look 2 books J think :photo 1 Holcophylloceras guettardi ,2 phylloceras ,3 idem,4 eotetragonites ,5 idem. My bibliographie is consideration sur la faune gargasienne du sud est de la fosse vocontienne by Gerard Thomel 1960 and fossiliem sammelm in sudfrankreich by Gero Moosleitner 2002. Best regards Hervé

[Max-fossils]

On 11/25/2018 at 7:47 PM, herve said:

Hello ,J look 2 books J think :photo 1 Holcophylloceras guettardi ,2 phylloceras ,3 idem,4 eotetragonites ,5 idem. My bibliographie is consideration sur la faune gargasienne du sud est de la fosse vocontienne by Gerard Thomel 1960 and fossiliem sammelm in sudfrankreich by Gero Moosleitner 2002. Best regards Hervé

Merci pour l’info!