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Woolly Rhino teeth from Mongolia ?


Brett Breakin' Rocks

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Hi guys .. quick question.  Is it possible for material, any material to come out of Mongolia legally (Pleistocene) ?  I thought the fossil laws were fairly strict ?

 

Specifically Wooly Rhino teeth from Ulaanbaatar Mongolia.

 

Thanks,

Brett

 

EDIT- Seller states these came out of Mongolia several years ago.

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:blink: Yes, it is completely illegal to sell or export fossils in Mongolia. I realized that you live in the United States, and ICE, with every passing year, increases the accuracy of inspecting illegal fossils coming from China, Mongolia, Brazil, and so on. Many fossils that have left these countries have already been confiscated when they arrived in the United States by ICE, and many buyers have already been arrested. So if this Woolly Rhino teeth is already in your country, then no problem, but be careful, if this tooth is coming from China or Mongolia and if it is seized by ICE, the buyer, besides being arrested, can be prosecuted.

However, I do not know what ICE can tolerate, such as a simple Woolly Rhino teeth which is a relatively common material and what ICE can not tolerate, such as a Tarbosaurus skull. Anyway, I do not know if there is any tolerance.

 

Here are two excellent search pages:

 

http://montsame.mn/en/read/126969

 

https://thediplomat.com/2014/07/us-repatriates-mongolian-dinosaur-fossils/

:dinothumb:

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57 minutes ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

:blink: Yes, it is completely illegal to sell or export fossils in Mongolia. I realized that you live in the United States, and ICE, with every passing year, increases the accuracy of inspecting illegal fossils coming from China, Mongolia, Brazil, and so on. Many fossils that have left these countries have already been confiscated when they arrived in the United States by ICE, and many buyers have already been arrested. So if this Woolly Rhino teeth is already in your country, then no problem, but be careful, if this tooth is coming from China or Mongolia and if it is seized by ICE, the buyer, besides being arrested, can be prosecuted.

However, I do not know what ICE can tolerate, such as a simple Woolly Rhino teeth which is a relatively common material and what ICE can not tolerate, such as a Tarbosaurus skull. Anyway, I do not know if there is any tolerance.

 

Here are two excellent search pages:

 

http://montsame.mn/en/read/126969

 

https://thediplomat.com/2014/07/us-repatriates-mongolian-dinosaur-fossils/

:dinothumb:

Thanks .... it looks as if 'officially' anything after 1924 is verboten. 

 

Cheers,

B

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53 minutes ago, Brett Breakin' Rocks said:

Thanks .... it looks as if 'officially' anything after 1924 is verboten. 

 

Cheers,

B

 

 You are welcome my friend Brett! The problem is that in the United States, many collectors have already received a kind and lovely visit from U.S. federal prosecutors, taking part of their collections seized, and this collectors have been arrested and prosecuted. It's hard to prove that the fossils from Mongolia were collected before 1924! So if you really would like to have a genuine Woolly Rhino teeth in your collection, it is well for the health that I recommend the Woolly Rhino teeth discovered in Zandmotor or the North Sea:

 

image.png.b570bf73e1f90e0baacca4cad5d7ba6b.png

 

These teeth are wonderful and the sale is allowed. By the way, the Zandmotor is sand dredged up from the North Sea. :dinothumb:

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I find this lione interesting "many collectors have already received a kind and lovely visit from U.S. federal prosecutors, taking part of their collections seized, and this collectors have been arrested and prosecuted."

 

Really?!  Many?! 

 

I know of one...  that Propoki  (sp) feller in Florida who had the Tyrannosaurus bataar for sale.  

 

I am intrigued and would love to hear of more such tales....

 

 

 

 

 

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Many is not the right word, I guess, but it's a lot more than one. Some known and some unknown to public... Forget Mongolia, no need to go that far; remember the artifacts affair few years ago in Fl? https://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/north-florida-arrowhead-sting-whats-the-point/2159379 Or Pete Larson? Recent Moroccan affairs (plesiosaurus and spinosaurus jaw fragment)? Brazilian efforts to make an example? 507020a.pdf?origin=ppub

 

It's a complicated matter, there is a totally legal trade in fossils too, but money and bad legislation can complicate things! 

 

What's the point of such stories? It's all about $$$$, not protection of "cultural heritage" nor "valuable lost scientific information", that otherwise erodes away or is cut to building blocks or grinded to dust or cement, thanks to overly-protective legislation. They make a big case in the media - to make an example and to fuel their side of the story - and because ignorant and neglected cases such as the story of museum in Brazil rarely get media attention, it works perfectly. Since Prokopi's story broke, we haven't seen a single Mongolian piece offered for sale publicly in the open market. Did the trade stop? It's naive to think, illegal drugs are not sold everyday... I know a few more international examples of seized/prosecuted collections/collectors - in Brazil, Spain, France, Italy... If you think about it in a big picture, it's all just for show.

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@aeon.rocks I agree whole this statement in its entirety, If you look how much ha been uncovered from Morocco this past year its amazing at least 3 papers on kem kem paleofauna. And places like the flaming cliffs in Mongolia don't have anyone working to excavate fossils and are rapidly being destroyed by the elements, same with the dinosaur provincial park in alberta the museum has too many pieces and only collects a few while the others are left to turn to dust but its forbidden for individuals to collect? And then you wonder about museums and institutes claiming a lack of funding ...well I have a solution to that which I think would be very obvious if you have too many isolated bone pieces and teeth, honestly I think the only two places in the world where the laws in place make sense for both parties is the green river formation and solnhofen limestone formation. And with this I will stop here because no matter what I say I am only one individual with no power behind my voice.

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Yes, indeed we can find more than just the one I pointed out, but I was thinking specifically for Mongolian fossils.  

Yes, Pete Larson, but no on the Florida case which was all about arrowheads.  

 

And this just in... hot off the press...

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/11/27/feds-defeated-attempt-keep-mongolian-dinosaur-skull?fbclid=IwAR11HTulr__H1rDnB2fwN0BY4OGobw1xdaUed8F1Q8jE3kFYiyUc4Sfq5A8

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If someone, from the Far East, is selling a fossil labeled as "undetermined" or "nice tooth for education", how can it be under government restriction, if wasn't determined what it might be? :)

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

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13 hours ago, jpc said:

Yes, indeed we can find more than just the one I pointed out, but I was thinking specifically for Mongolian fossils.  

Yes, Pete Larson, but no on the Florida case which was all about arrowheads.  

 

And this just in... hot off the press...

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/11/27/feds-defeated-attempt-keep-mongolian-dinosaur-skull?fbclid=IwAR11HTulr__H1rDnB2fwN0BY4OGobw1xdaUed8F1Q8jE3kFYiyUc4Sfq5A8

 

Yeah, that's fresh... Article suggests there have been a lot more cases of repatriation of Mongolian fossils, so I'm guessing that "Prokopi affair" opened mongolian pandora's box, not all cases are covered in media tho. Isn't it interesting that Mongolian specimens in museums are still "on loan"? 

 

It's a bit naive to talk about repatriation and stolen cultural heritage, as mentioned in the article, when museums worldwide are still full of artifacts harvested decades ago in foreign countries like Egypt, Asia etc. 

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7 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

Yeah, that's fresh... Article suggests there have been a lot more cases of repatriation of Mongolian fossils, so I'm guessing that "Prokopi affair" opened mongolian pandora's box, not all cases are covered in media tho. Isn't it interesting that Mongolian specimens in museums are still "on loan"? 

 

It's a bit naive to talk about repatriation and stolen cultural heritage, as mentioned in the article, when museums worldwide are still full of artifacts harvested decades ago in foreign countries like Egypt, Asia etc. 

Yes, theoretically, any Mongolian specimens you see in the Museum are on loan form that country.  I hope it is on the labels in places like the AMNH.  

 

And it seems France is about to repatriate a bunch of stuff form its previous African colonies....

 

Nicolas Cage,I am told, did return a T. bataar skull to Mongolia when the Propoki affair surfaced.  

 

It is all certainly a tangled web.  And now throw in the recent ruling in Montana to keep things even more confusing.  

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On 27.11.2018 at 4:28 PM, Haravex said:

honestly I think the only two places in the world where the laws in place make sense for both parties is the green river formation and solnhofen limestone formation. 

 

Hm, can you help me with that my friend? :) 

I live in Bavaria and not far away from Solnhofen, already dug there for fossils. Here in Bavaria we don't have a fossil law, that means I can basically keep everything I find if it's not from a private quarry. Fossils are like a treasurefind in Bavaria. Sorry my english is not good enough to explain this further.

So I'm not sure what you mean :) 

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The conversation certainly has been lively .... definitely some informative links and articles.  Thanks everyone for the input.  Personally I see a need and a place for amateur collecting when done in a responsible way.  Here on the East coast in the US we have an energized and enthusiastic bunch of collectors North and South and they are always contributing to the scientific understanding through direct involvement or through donations for study to local museums and institutions. 

 

So many eyes in the field ... a crowdsourcing, if you will, of minds. At least that has been my experience in the local groups and forums since I started collecting a few years ago ...

 

Cheers,

Brett

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Quoting Haravex:  "honestly I think the only two places in the world where the laws in place make sense for both parties is the green river formation and solnhofen limestone formation"

Quoting Abstraktum: "Hm, can you help me with that my friend?"

 

The Green River Fm is collected the same way all fossils sites are done in the US.  At least in the internal US, where there are no sea cliffs and beaches.  The laws here are that vertebrate fossils on public lands are off limits.  Most of the Green River Fm is indeed on public lands, including Fossil Butte National Monument.  No collecting allowed.  There are a dozen or so quarries that are on private lands, and the diggers have contracts to collect and sell with the actual landowners.  These are where all the fossils you see for sale are from, as well as all the dig your own fossils from the GRF.  The same works for many other sites from Shark Tooth Hill to the trilobite quarries in Utah, Oklahoma and New York.  If you have the time and money (permission implied if you pay)  you are generally welcome to dig there.  The laws are the same in general all over the USA.  So no need to single out the GRF wheh it comes to laws.  The difference,maybe,  is in the way landowner permission is granted.  For all my other fossil sites around here I need to get landowner permission.  This is not always a given, and neither is it easy. 

 

But we have diverted form the original post, huh.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, Abstraktum said:

 

Hm, can you help me with that my friend? :) 

I live in Bavaria and not far away from Solnhofen, already dug there for fossils. Here in Bavaria we don't have a fossil law, that means I can basically keep everything I find if it's not from a private quarry. Fossils are like a treasurefind in Bavaria. Sorry my english is not good enough to explain this further.

So I'm not sure what you mean :) 

 

Things changed a little, in some extend that's still true, but Germany recently passed the Cultural Property Protection Act that restricts collecting: https://www.steinkern.de/news-updates/1163-kulturgutschutzgesetz.html  

 

However, it's still far from "protection laws" in the south of EU, you might be even right, that collecting is not restricted in some counties like Bavaria, best to recheck though.

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5 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

Things changed a little, in some extend that's still true, but Germany recently passed the Cultural Property Protection Act that restricts collecting: https://www.steinkern.de/news-updates/1163-kulturgutschutzgesetz.html  

 

However, it's still far from "protection laws" in the south of EU, you might be even right, that collecting is not restricted in some counties like Bavaria, best to recheck though.

 

 

First of all: Sorry for my 4 previous posts. My PC had a problem and it was posted multiple times. I can't delete them.

 

 

I've seen this article countless times, but don't really get why everyone is quoting this. This article is very long and lot's of talking about the history and how they tried to change about it. Informative but not straight to the point. Why not go directly to the gouvernment or the ministry? There is a great deal of information regadring this topic way better than this Steinkern-Article.

 

 

For all the german speakers here, all you need to know is in this PDF and it answers all the important questions.

 

CLICK

 

 

This law doesn't affect private collectors in any way. You can buy and sell and collect fossils like befor the law. Ok, maybe not if you find an Archaeopteryx or stuff like that.

 

Quote:

Fossilien werden daher – von wenigen herausragenden Exemplaren abgesehen – im deutschen Recht ebenso wenig als „Kulturgut“ betrachtet wie etwa grundsätzlich auch Mineralien oder geologische Proben.

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Late Tertiary/Quaternary rhinocerotid remains and hominid evolution are intertwined phenomena.

If the rhinoceratid remains are from a Human Origins Heritage Site as defined by Unesco(not sure about this)...

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Abstraktum said:

 

 

First of all: Sorry for my 4 previous posts. My PC had a problem and it was posted multiple times. I can't delete them.

 

 

I've seen this article countless times, but don't really get why everyone is quoting this. This article is very long and lot's of talking about the history and how they tried to change about it. Informative but not straight to the point. Why not go directly to the gouvernment or the ministry? There is a great deal of information regadring this topic way better than this Steinkern-Article.

 

 

For all the german speakers here, all you need to know is in this PDF and it answers all the important questions.

 

CLICK

 

 

This law doesn't affect private collectors in any way. You can buy and sell and collect fossils like befor the law. Ok, maybe not if you find an Archaeopteryx or stuff like that.

 

Quote:

Fossilien werden daher – von wenigen herausragenden Exemplaren abgesehen – im deutschen Recht ebenso wenig als „Kulturgut“ betrachtet wie etwa grundsätzlich auch Mineralien oder geologische Proben.

 

 

I'm sure the best place to find information is legislation draft. I could be wrong, but from what I could read, german fossil-collecting community and german experts helped a lot to make the proposed legislation more friendly as it was in the original draft. 

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3 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

 

I'm sure the best place to find information is legislation draft. I could be wrong, but from what I could read, german fossil-collecting community and german experts helped a lot to make the proposed legislation more friendly as it was in the original draft. 

 

Yes that is true :) The Steinkern Article is mainly about this topic how they helped making it more friendly to us :) They did a great job and every german fossilhunter should really be thankfull to them.

 

(Sorry for the whole off topic :ninja:)

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  • 2 weeks later...

The pull tab was invented in 1959. Alternatives weren't invented until the late '70s. So, If you're out in the woods/deserts in the US don't pickup a pull-tab because you will be in violation of antiquities laws (unless you can prove it is a "modern" pull tab). And leave those 1968 & earlier Lincoln cents (and other coins) alone as well! ****

 

I'm going to leave this right here:

 

Quote

Archaeologists would prefer artifacts be left alone. Duval County Court Judge Gary Flower, a collector himself, has called that approach, "Leave it where it's at for future generations to never find and pave over."

 

Quote is from the article "North Florida arrowhead sting: What's the point?".

 

 

**** And NO, to set the record absolutely straight, I haven't collected anything from any public lands other than a few (less than 50 pounds!!!) of rocks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:popcorn: John

I had a friend once, but the wheels fell off. Sad, very sad. - Nightwing

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