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Sacha

Peace River (Florida) echinoid ID

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Tidgy's Dad

Nice! 

Not sure what they are exactly, but very nice! :)

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Coco

Hi,

 

I have some recent Encope michelini from USA, the lunula (hole at the top) is narrower on mine, and the average size of my sea urchins is 12 cm (4" 7/10) tall (in the same direction as yours). But how is the size of yours ? A coin is a very bad scale : only american people knows its size... !

 

Coco

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DPS Ammonite
1 hour ago, Coco said:

 But how is the size of yours ? A coin is a very bad scale : only american people knows its size... !

 

Coco

We need to encourage our governments to create something useful: coins or bills with mm/cm scales on them. They are durable and you usually have at least one in your pocket. 

 

Imagine a new US quarter set: a representative fossil for each state along with a scale. In Elrathia kingii we trust.

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-AnThOnY-

Dont know, but if you're ever interested in trading echinoids for echinoids I would be interested :P

 

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Sacha
2 hours ago, Coco said:

Hi,

 

I have some recent Encope michelini from USA, the lunula (hole at the top) is narrower on mine, and the average size of my sea urchins is 12 cm (4" 7/10) tall (in the same direction as yours). But how is the size of yours ? A coin is a very bad scale : only american people knows its size... !

 

Coco

 

Mine are 6 cm or about 2.5 inches along the axis of symmetry.

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Rockwood
1 hour ago, DPS Ammonite said:

our government

The one that uses BTUs and foot/ pounds. :wacko:

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Shellseeker

May be the same, I found these 8 years ago in a Construction Aggregate Pit between North Fort Myers and Punta Gordo. Note the flat bottom and rounding edges. Keyhole Arrowhead Sand Dollars, but what is the Scientific name ? Maybe Mike would assist. @MikeR

IMG_3921.jpg.444f5dab8c7766c2bbe299f27beb3803.jpgIMG_3923.thumb.jpg.d46f361e360a9469e7f5fdb67f00e33d.jpg

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Coco

Probably Encope tamiamiensis. Mine is from Florida, Miocene.

 

Coco

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Coco

About Sacha's ones, they can be Encope grandis, it would be better than E. michelini... (Sorry, I had not looked in all my drawers !) :blush:

 

My recent ones are 9 cm long and come from Mexico (country, not the city).

 

Coco

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Bronzviking

Here is an example of Encope tamiamiensis from the forum.

 

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Shellseeker
1 hour ago, Coco said:

About Sacha's ones, they can be Encope grandis, it would be better than E. michelini...

 

May be an old reference, but seems to imply the E. grandis comes from Gulf of California,  not Florida

Quote

Original Description (from Mansfield, 1932, p. 48-49):

"In the report by Cooke and Mossom I referred this form to Encope macrophora Ravenel, but I now believe, after more study, that it represents a new subspecies of E. macrophora.

E. macrophora tamiamiensis appears to be an intermediate form between E. macrophora and E. grandis (L. Agassiz). It differs from E. macrophora in having a proportionately wider and thinner test, a concave instead of convex posterior margin, and a much smaller interambulacral lunule. It differs from E. grandis, a Recent species reported by A. Agassiz to occur in the Gulf of California, in having in general a shallower anterior marginal notch and less incised lateral marginal notches. The posterior margin on both forms is very similar in the degree of convexity, indicating a close relationship.

The test of the new subspecies is usually wider than long, rather thin, but not having sharp edges. The region directly in front of the lunule is the thickest part of the test. The lunule is elliptical and is surrounded on its upper surface by a raised border.

Dimensions: Holotype (catalogue No. 371328, U. S. Nat. Mus.), length, 84 millimeters; width, 87 millimeters; height, 11 millimeters; thickness of margins, about 6 millimeters.

Type locality: Station 1/1177, Tamiami Trail, 5 miles east of Carnestown and about 7 miles northeast of Everglades, Collier County.

Occurrence: Pliocene. Type locality (abundant), station 1/1180 (abundant), station 1/1178 (rare?). Small specimens that have been referred to Encope macrophora, from the Pliocene Caloosahatchee marl at Alligator Creek, Monroe County, Fla., appear to be more closely related to the new subspecies than to E. macrophora."

 

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Sacha

Encope L. Agassiz is quite similar, but the notches seem deeper and broader. I'm not familiar enough with echinoids to know what the variability is within species. It's also not listed in my publications for echinoids of the Eastern US, but I don't know if that's definitive.

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MikeR

Were they collected in-situ in a well defined bed or in chunks of limestone?  They appear to be Encope tamiamiensis which would make them from the Upper Pliocene Tamiami Formation which to my knowledge does not outcrop on the Peace.  Jack has previously documented Caloosahatchee material that was trucked in nearby for unknown uses.  As seen in the pic of three different lots of E. tamiamiensis, the lunule can be quite variable.

 

5c0154380f85b_Encopetamiamiensis.thumb.JPG.4abdb87665cbb833029f51f6b0ad9395.JPG

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Sacha
2 hours ago, MikeR said:

Were they collected in-situ in a well defined bed or in chunks of limestone?  They appear to be Encope tamiamiensis which would make them from the Upper Pliocene Tamiami Formation which to my knowledge does not outcrop on the Peace.  Jack has previously documented Caloosahatchee material that was trucked in nearby for unknown uses.  As seen in the pic of three different lots of E. tamiamiensis, the lunule can be quite variable.

 

They were dug from the middle of the Peace. Not in limestone, but sand and clay. 

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Sacha

An update from Roger Portal from UF.

 

Yes these are Encope most likely E. michelini based on the image.  A few have been reported from Arcadia from a deposit of the Pliocene Tamiami Formation.  If extras are available, please send.

 

I'll forward my specimens to him with the Santa Fe sea urchins.

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Plantguy

Hey John, nice finds. congrats! Regards, Chris 

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Shellseeker
7 hours ago, Sacha said:

I'll forward my specimens to him with the Santa Fe sea urchins.

:fistbump:

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digit

Nice! The FLMNH invertebrate collection is receiving a nice early Christmas present from John. The FLMNH has recently purchased a new building to expand the are for collections but I cannot confirm the rumor that it is due to John's generous donations. :P

 

I know the spot where these were collected. I stopped at the large tree which marks this locality last year when my cousin and her husband were visiting from Minnesota and we found a nice Encope which now resides at that northern latitude. It was the only location that I ever found intact barnacle clusters (Balanus sp). instead of the more common internal casts (steinkerns). I believe those barnacles found their way into a rolling auction and now reside in the UK. Peace River inverts sure do get around. ;)

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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Sacha
12 minutes ago, digit said:

 

 

I know the spot where these were collected. I stopped at the large tree which marks this locality last year when my cousin and her husband were visiting from Minnesota and we found a nice Encope which now resides at that northern latitude. It was the only location that I ever found intact barnacle clusters (Balanus sp). instead of the more common internal casts (steinkerns). I believe those barnacles found their way into a rolling auction and now reside in the UK. Peace River inverts sure do get around. ;)

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

Ken, if you can spot that location on Google maps, can you please PM me with the Lat/Long coordinates please. I want to include the exact location and I got mine back in 2011 on one of my first trips with Fred Mazza. I don't know where it was in relation to the canoe outpost.

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digit

I'll have a look from satellite viewpoint. I'll also check any of my photos from there to see if I had GPS tagging turned on. Failing that I'll contact Becky at Canoe Outpost as she is very familiar with the locality. She knew immediately where we had been when we brought back up this material.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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digit

Found my photos. This was the day before our last Florida TFF meet-up on the Peace River in April of 2017. Thinking it may be time to start thinking about another such event. :) @jcbshark

 

Here's one of the two Encope we found that day. The GPS coordinates are stripped from this image but I'll send them to you in a PM.

 

P4142288.jpg

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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Shellseeker
1 hour ago, digit said:

Found my photos. This was the day before our last Florida TFF meet-up on the Peace River in April of 2017. Thinking it may be time to start thinking about another such event. :) @jcbshark

 

Here's one of the two Encope we found that day. The GPS coordinates are stripped from this image but I'll send them to you in a PM.

 

P4142288.jpg

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

Ken,

That's in great shape... Nice. What was keeping it intact?  Sand?  Mud... I am usually in rockier sections and mine come up in fragments. 

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digit

This area contains various fragile items in a sandy muddy matrix. It is amazing that something this large can come up in a shovel without looking like a 1000 piece echinoid puzzle. Currently watching river gauges and trying to make the river level to drop by sheer force of will. ;) Maybe we'll stop at this location again to see what else might pop out in good condition. Now knowing that fossils from this spot are of interest to Roger Portell for the FLMNH I may have to see what I can dig up.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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