Sacha Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 There is a spot in the Peace, not far upstream of the Canoe Outpost, that yields relatively large quantities of the sand dollar shown in the photo below. I have these 2 relatively good examples and 3 more partials stuck together in a block. All are of nearly identical size. I had assumed Miocene based on the source, but the the publication from UF on "Pliocene and Pleistocene Echinoids" has the only sand dollars coming close. The closest matching in shape is Encope michelini, but the sample is twice the size of my examples. Anyone have experience with these? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Nice! Not sure what they are exactly, but very nice! Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Hi, I have some recent Encope michelini from USA, the lunula (hole at the top) is narrower on mine, and the average size of my sea urchins is 12 cm (4" 7/10) tall (in the same direction as yours). But how is the size of yours ? A coin is a very bad scale : only american people knows its size... ! Coco 1 ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Coco said: But how is the size of yours ? A coin is a very bad scale : only american people knows its size... ! Coco We need to encourage our governments to create something useful: coins or bills with mm/cm scales on them. They are durable and you usually have at least one in your pocket. Imagine a new US quarter set: a representative fossil for each state along with a scale. In Elrathia kingii we trust. 3 1 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AnThOnY- Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Dont know, but if you're ever interested in trading echinoids for echinoids I would be interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Coco said: Hi, I have some recent Encope michelini from USA, the lunula (hole at the top) is narrower on mine, and the average size of my sea urchins is 12 cm (4" 7/10) tall (in the same direction as yours). But how is the size of yours ? A coin is a very bad scale : only american people knows its size... ! Coco Mine are 6 cm or about 2.5 inches along the axis of symmetry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 1 hour ago, DPS Ammonite said: our government The one that uses BTUs and foot/ pounds. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 May be the same, I found these 8 years ago in a Construction Aggregate Pit between North Fort Myers and Punta Gordo. Note the flat bottom and rounding edges. Keyhole Arrowhead Sand Dollars, but what is the Scientific name ? Maybe Mike would assist. @MikeR 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Probably Encope tamiamiensis. Mine is from Florida, Miocene. Coco 2 ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 About Sacha's ones, they can be Encope grandis, it would be better than E. michelini... (Sorry, I had not looked in all my drawers !) My recent ones are 9 cm long and come from Mexico (country, not the city). Coco 1 ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronzviking Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Here is an example of Encope tamiamiensis from the forum. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Coco said: About Sacha's ones, they can be Encope grandis, it would be better than E. michelini... May be an old reference, but seems to imply the E. grandis comes from Gulf of California, not Florida Quote Original Description (from Mansfield, 1932, p. 48-49): "In the report by Cooke and Mossom I referred this form to Encope macrophora Ravenel, but I now believe, after more study, that it represents a new subspecies of E. macrophora. E. macrophora tamiamiensis appears to be an intermediate form between E. macrophora and E. grandis (L. Agassiz). It differs from E. macrophora in having a proportionately wider and thinner test, a concave instead of convex posterior margin, and a much smaller interambulacral lunule. It differs from E. grandis, a Recent species reported by A. Agassiz to occur in the Gulf of California, in having in general a shallower anterior marginal notch and less incised lateral marginal notches. The posterior margin on both forms is very similar in the degree of convexity, indicating a close relationship. The test of the new subspecies is usually wider than long, rather thin, but not having sharp edges. The region directly in front of the lunule is the thickest part of the test. The lunule is elliptical and is surrounded on its upper surface by a raised border. Dimensions: Holotype (catalogue No. 371328, U. S. Nat. Mus.), length, 84 millimeters; width, 87 millimeters; height, 11 millimeters; thickness of margins, about 6 millimeters. Type locality: Station 1/1177, Tamiami Trail, 5 miles east of Carnestown and about 7 miles northeast of Everglades, Collier County. Occurrence: Pliocene. Type locality (abundant), station 1/1180 (abundant), station 1/1178 (rare?). Small specimens that have been referred to Encope macrophora, from the Pliocene Caloosahatchee marl at Alligator Creek, Monroe County, Fla., appear to be more closely related to the new subspecies than to E. macrophora." The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterpillar Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/echinoid-directory/taxa/taxon.jsp?id=834 http://www.echinologia.com/galeries/mellitidae/index.html#encope http://www.paleotheque.fr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 Encope L. Agassiz is quite similar, but the notches seem deeper and broader. I'm not familiar enough with echinoids to know what the variability is within species. It's also not listed in my publications for echinoids of the Eastern US, but I don't know if that's definitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeR Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Were they collected in-situ in a well defined bed or in chunks of limestone? They appear to be Encope tamiamiensis which would make them from the Upper Pliocene Tamiami Formation which to my knowledge does not outcrop on the Peace. Jack has previously documented Caloosahatchee material that was trucked in nearby for unknown uses. As seen in the pic of three different lots of E. tamiamiensis, the lunule can be quite variable. 3 "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, MikeR said: Were they collected in-situ in a well defined bed or in chunks of limestone? They appear to be Encope tamiamiensis which would make them from the Upper Pliocene Tamiami Formation which to my knowledge does not outcrop on the Peace. Jack has previously documented Caloosahatchee material that was trucked in nearby for unknown uses. As seen in the pic of three different lots of E. tamiamiensis, the lunule can be quite variable. They were dug from the middle of the Peace. Not in limestone, but sand and clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted December 1, 2018 Author Share Posted December 1, 2018 An update from Roger Portal from UF. Yes these are Encope most likely E. michelini based on the image. A few have been reported from Arcadia from a deposit of the Pliocene Tamiami Formation. If extras are available, please send. I'll forward my specimens to him with the Santa Fe sea urchins. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Hey John, nice finds. congrats! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 7 hours ago, Sacha said: I'll forward my specimens to him with the Santa Fe sea urchins. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 Nice! The FLMNH invertebrate collection is receiving a nice early Christmas present from John. The FLMNH has recently purchased a new building to expand the are for collections but I cannot confirm the rumor that it is due to John's generous donations. I know the spot where these were collected. I stopped at the large tree which marks this locality last year when my cousin and her husband were visiting from Minnesota and we found a nice Encope which now resides at that northern latitude. It was the only location that I ever found intact barnacle clusters (Balanus sp). instead of the more common internal casts (steinkerns). I believe those barnacles found their way into a rolling auction and now reside in the UK. Peace River inverts sure do get around. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted December 2, 2018 Author Share Posted December 2, 2018 12 minutes ago, digit said: I know the spot where these were collected. I stopped at the large tree which marks this locality last year when my cousin and her husband were visiting from Minnesota and we found a nice Encope which now resides at that northern latitude. It was the only location that I ever found intact barnacle clusters (Balanus sp). instead of the more common internal casts (steinkerns). I believe those barnacles found their way into a rolling auction and now reside in the UK. Peace River inverts sure do get around. Cheers. -Ken Ken, if you can spot that location on Google maps, can you please PM me with the Lat/Long coordinates please. I want to include the exact location and I got mine back in 2011 on one of my first trips with Fred Mazza. I don't know where it was in relation to the canoe outpost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 I'll have a look from satellite viewpoint. I'll also check any of my photos from there to see if I had GPS tagging turned on. Failing that I'll contact Becky at Canoe Outpost as she is very familiar with the locality. She knew immediately where we had been when we brought back up this material. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 Found my photos. This was the day before our last Florida TFF meet-up on the Peace River in April of 2017. Thinking it may be time to start thinking about another such event. @jcbshark Here's one of the two Encope we found that day. The GPS coordinates are stripped from this image but I'll send them to you in a PM. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 1 hour ago, digit said: Found my photos. This was the day before our last Florida TFF meet-up on the Peace River in April of 2017. Thinking it may be time to start thinking about another such event. @jcbshark Here's one of the two Encope we found that day. The GPS coordinates are stripped from this image but I'll send them to you in a PM. Cheers. -Ken Ken, That's in great shape... Nice. What was keeping it intact? Sand? Mud... I am usually in rockier sections and mine come up in fragments. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 This area contains various fragile items in a sandy muddy matrix. It is amazing that something this large can come up in a shovel without looking like a 1000 piece echinoid puzzle. Currently watching river gauges and trying to make the river level to drop by sheer force of will. Maybe we'll stop at this location again to see what else might pop out in good condition. Now knowing that fossils from this spot are of interest to Roger Portell for the FLMNH I may have to see what I can dig up. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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