Serpulid i.d. needed please

[DE&i]

Although probably to water worn for a positive i.d., I think this brachiopod may be Obovothryris magnobovata which I found in some Bathonian Cornbrash Formation exposures.

 

What id like to know if possible is the age and specie’s this Serpulid tube would be in relation to the brachiopod.

 

 

[digit]

Cool brachiopod. I get the feeling given the different coloration that the serpulid tube that it is much more modern (but that is just a gut feel based on the many modern serpulid tubes I've seen on modern shells and rocks). The oldest serpulids only extend back to the Permian so, if your brach dates from much older than this, the serpulid would have been added when the fossil was exposed as float from the original formation. Is there a marine environment nearby that could indicate this being relatively modern?

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Max-fossils]

1 minute ago, digit said:

Cool brachiopod. I get the feeling given the different coloration that the serpulid tube that it is much more modern (but that is just a gut feel based on the many modern serpulid tubes I've seen on modern shells and rocks). The oldest serpulids only extend back to the Permian so, if your brach dates from much older than this, the serpulid would have been added when the fossil was exposed as float from the original formation. Is there a marine environment nearby that could indicate this being relatively modern?

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

The OP said that the brachiopod was found in Bathonian (Jurassic) exposures.  

2 hours ago, DE&i said:

found in some Bathonian Cornbrash Formation exposures.

 

[Max-fossils]

I would say that the serpulid could be fossilized (although I'm not sure at all). I've found some Jurassic fossil serpulids too, and unlike anything else in the formation they had a flashy white color (opposed to the greys and browns of other fossils there). 

Maybe try looking for signs of matrix inside the serpulid? If it's packed in matrix then it's probably fossil too, and died more or less at the same time as the brachiopod. If you can recognize the matrix inside the serpulid as being exactly the same as that inside the brach, then there's a big chance both are just as old. 

Beautiful brachiopod by the way, that blue is fantastic! 

[digit]

Ah, yes--I see I skipped over the formation information on the top line while being mesmerized by the lovely blue coloration of the brachiopod. The color difference still makes me lean toward different ages but that is not based on anything that could be claimed as scientific knowledge.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Max-fossils]

1 minute ago, digit said:

Ah, yes--I see I skipped over the formation information on the top line while being mesmerized by the lovely blue coloration of the brachiopod. The color difference still makes me lean toward different ages but that is not based on anything that could be claimed as scientific knowledge.

 

[Max-fossils]

8 minutes ago, Max-fossils said:

I've found some Jurassic fossil serpulids too, and unlike anything else in the formation they had a flashy white color (opposed to the greys and browns of other fossils there). 

Just to show what I meant here. These specimens were all collected about 2m apart in the location Audreselles (Cap-Gris-Nez, France). They are from the Portland Group, aged Tithonian (Jurassic). You can clearly see the color difference between the serpulid and the bivalves.

[Max-fossils]

[Max-fossils]

[DE&i]

Thank you @Max-fossils @digit for your very informative input, as I really appreciate that. I've just used the very useful search function on TFF and come across an image of Serpula sulcata Found by @Ludwigia. If you get the chance could you check the Image out for a comparison please. 

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Where was it found ? 

The Cornbrash has four distinct brachiopod assemblages and this one looks more like Ornithella to me (more rounded at the end opposite the pedicle, Obothyris tends to be more flattened off.

Serpula plicatilis rings a bell, but I must go and check. 

[Ludwigia]

It's actually called Serpula sulcata                      

[DE&i]

35 minutes ago, Ludwigia said:

It's actually called Serpula sulcata                      

Sorry I rushed  my typing, resulting in a typo. Thank you for putting it straight. 

[DE&i]

1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Where was it found ? 

The Cornbrash has four distinct brachiopod assemblages and this one looks more like Ornithella to me (more rounded at the end opposite the pedicle, Obothyris tends to be more flattened off.

Serpula plicatilis rings a bell, but I must go and check. 

Ketton, UK. 

Admittley I also thought Ornithella but the anterior part of the brachiopod is flat. Sorry that the photos don't quite bring this feature out. 

[abyssunder]

It might be close to Propomatoceros lumbricalis (Schlotheim, 1820), but it's just a suggestion.

[DE&i]

I now believe the serpulid to be Sarcinella plexus. They come from the Blisworth Limestone of the Great Oolite 'Series', Upper Bathonian, which makes the host serpulid and brachiopod dating 162 million years old. 

[abyssunder]

Your tube worm has a median crest on the top, while Sarcinella plexus has a smoother outer surface.

 

picture from here

 

 

[DE&i]

4 minutes ago, abyssunder said:

Your tube worm has a median crest on the top, while Sarcinella plexus has a smoother outer surface.

 

picture from here

 

 

Thank you @abyssundervery good point, back to the drawing board for me. 

[abyssunder]

 Indeed, Sarcinella plexus appears in BRLSI as being from the Great Oolite.

Contrasting the somehow triangular (as far I can see) cross section of the specimen(s) in question, S. plexus is more circular in shape.

If the brachiopod comes from unaltered by recent seas sediments, the settled tube worm(s) should be approximately of the same age, otherwise it(they) may be more recent.

[DE&i]

Thank you for sticking with me @abyssunder as it can be easy to loose the trail when researching such finds.

 

My latest hunch is to focus on the matrix which adheres the serpulid to the brachiopod. As it's of a grey appearence, it's something that @Max-fossils touched on earlier in the thread. Also where you can see some crushing on the brach, there is a grey matrix in there as well.

 

As this brachiopod was found in the Cornbrash Formation, I've just realised that there is Oxford Clay on top of the Cornbrash. 

 

So do you think we can say that perhaps the Serpula is from the Oxford Clay. 

[abyssunder]

1 hour ago, DE&i said:

Thank you for sticking with me @abyssunder as it can be easy to loose the trail when researching such finds.

 

My latest hunch is to focus on the matrix which adheres the serpulid to the brachiopod. As it's of a grey appearence, it's something that @Max-fossils touched on earlier in the thread. Also where you can see some crushing on the brach, there is a grey matrix in there as well.

 

As this brachiopod was found in the Cornbrash Formation, I've just realised that there is Oxford Clay on top of the Cornbrash. 

 

So do you think we can say that perhaps the Serpula is from the Oxford Clay. 

I don't know. All I can confirm is that the proposed P. lumbricalis was reported from Bajocian, Bathonian and Callovian stages, and looks similar to the one(s) in question. Don't know if it's present in younger sediments.

[abyssunder]

I've just found this very good document, maybe it helps a little.

A. Ippolitov. 2007. Contribution to the revision of some late Callovian serpulids (Annelida, Polychaeta) of Central Russia: Part 2. Paleontological Journal 41(4): 429-436

 

 

Here is part one.

 

 

[doushantuo]

04_geologica-saxonica60-1_2014_jaeger.pdf

(NB:In German,less than 3 MB)

 

Manfred Jaeger has written some excellent articles on Cretaceous serpulids,mostly paywalled(Geologisches Jahrbuch,Palaontologische Zeitschrift).

(They are actually a couple of feet away from me as we speak)

 

This one is not

outtake:

[DE&i]

Would anyone have some detailed pictures of a tricarinata serpula middle Jurassic great Oolite.

[abyssunder]

23 hours ago, DE&i said:

Would anyone have some detailed pictures of a tricarinata serpula middle Jurassic great Oolite.

If you are referring to Mucroserpula tricarinata, the best and documented images I have are from Ippolitov, 2007, Plate 12, but not from the Great Oolite.

 

M. tricarinata would be the other candidate, and that's the reason why I wanted to show them together in my previous reply.

It is stated in Ippolitov, A.P., Vinn, O., Kupriyanova, E.K. and Jäger, M. 2014. Written in stone: history of serpulid polychaetes through time. Memoirs of Museum Victoria 71: 123–159 :

 

" Numerous fossils having large sub-triangular tubes with pronounced median keels appear during the Early Jurassic.
They are classified within the exclusively “fossil” genus Propomatoceros (fig. 7L, M) and related Mucroserpula (Ippolitov, 2007b; Jäger and Schubert, 2008).

Tube ultrastructures of Propomatoceros show a dense outer layer (sensu Vinn and Kupriyanova, 2011) formed by spherulitic prismatic structure (SPHP; fig. 5G), typical for clade A.
Despite the striking morphological similarity of these tubes to Recent Spirobranchus, fossil Propomatoceros seem to lack opercular calcification, therefore, its attribution to any of Recent genera is not justified (Ippolitov, 2007b). Jurassic Propomatoceros appears to be a member of Laminatubus-Spirobranchus clade (fig. 1) or a stem group including common ancestors of Laminatubus-Spirobranchus and Galeolaria-Ficopomatus-Marifugia clades. "

 

Nice samples of Mucroserpula sp. are presented in Jäger, M., and Schubert, S. 2008. Das Ober-Pliensbachium (Domerium) der Herforder Liasmulde; Teil 2, Serpuliden (Kalkröhrenwürmer). Geologie und Paläontologie in Westfalen 71: 47–75 .

 

Hope all these help.