Jump to content

Native American Shark tooth pendant?


Wolf89

Recommended Posts

I'm not sure if this should go in the native American section or not, so mods feel free to move it.

 

I've seen mention that native Americans using fossil shark teeth as arrow heads and pendants and I've seen that they look actually like the tooth in question like where they put the string. That would be super cool if that's what this is. Thanks 

Screenshot_20181203-202951_Facebook.jpg

Screenshot_20181203-203014_Facebook.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Wolf89 said:

This looks nearly identical and is from the above paper

 

I will say, Drs. Godfrey and Eshelman are 1st class scientists. 

  • I found this Informative 1

Don't know much about history

Don't know much biology

Don't know much about science books.........

Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, SailingAlongToo said:

 

I will say, Drs. Godfrey and Eshelman are 1st class scientists. 

So you think there is a good chance this one would be an artifact?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not really sure.

 

If you notice, the photo you posted from the paper shows "notching" in the root, above the blade. Yours clearly shows the blade broken in the corners to make the grooves. I posted the paper to give you some scientific info on the subject.

 

We (Mrs.SA2 & I) have numerous straight teeth from the Chesapeake Bay region with grooves at the root/blade seam. Only 1 do we "think" might have been used as a "tool".

 

The nice lady I tagged has a tooth many folks think was used as a tool. Hopefully, she will respond & post a photo of hers.

 

I would email photos of your tooth to Dr. Stephen Godfrey and give him all the particulars including location of the find. You can find his email at Calvert Marine Museum's website. He will show the photos to Dr. Eshelman. 

 

Cheers!

  • I found this Informative 3

Don't know much about history

Don't know much biology

Don't know much about science books.........

Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I think this tooth is neither a pendant nor a human-modified point.  The boring is off-center, and no self-respecting NA would make that mistake.  Furthermore, used as a dart point, the root of the tooth would impede penetration of the target.  Note that the "ears" have been removed from the tooth from the publication.

 

 

  • I found this Informative 9

http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are probably pholad borings, so the tooth might have bioerosion markings. There is more then one boring in the tooth root.

Here are two similar ones.

 

gallery_1240_1773_64822.thumb.jpg.06560e0cab2f829f86e5e9c73d269dd8.jpgbv_meg150lb006.JPG.2f88ef46a61ab48547cf86869fe47e09.JPG

  • I found this Informative 3

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

My Library

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with @Harry Pristis and @abyssunder. Most likely pholad borings. That is holes from boring clams in the family Pholadidae.

  • I found this Informative 1

Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt
behind the trailer, my desert
Them red clay piles are heaven on earth
I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt

Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers

 

image.png.0c956e87cee523facebb6947cb34e842.png May 2016  MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png.a47e14d65deb3f8b242019b3a81d8160.png.b42a25e3438348310ba19ce6852f50c1.png May 2012 IPFOTM5.png.fb4f2a268e315c58c5980ed865b39e1f.png.1721b8912c45105152ac70b0ae8303c3.png.2b6263683ee32421d97e7fa481bd418a.pngAug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png.af5065d0585e85f4accd8b291bf0cc2e.png.72a83362710033c9bdc8510be7454b66.png.9171036128e7f95de57b6a0f03c491da.png Oct 2022

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am very new to the shark-tooth world, and the fossil world in general. However, I can't help seeing that this tooth could have been worn as a pendant. While it looks different, i.e. less refined, than the one in the referenced paper, the "feel" of it is not so dissimilar to my, admittedly untrained, eye. Is it possible that said difference is just a matter of style? Or that an early native thousands of years ago picked up such a tooth, complete with borings, and liked that they could pass some rawhide, sinew, gut, etc., through it without having to do the boring themselves? It's probably a moot point, but I do see a resemblance between the two images that make me believe it would at least be somewhat possible.

 

Every society has perfectionist makers of usable things, who live in the neighborhood of those who perhaps see more value in naturally occurring utility, i.e., ease of use, right? While it seems unlikely to ever be able to prove this piece was was worn as fashion, rather than merely being worn (as in eroded) in a suggestive way, it is interesting to leave it open to that possibility.

 

If it was just the boring holes, I'd think it was a happy coincidence. And it's true that any small thing with a hole passed th through it, that has some cool appeal, could be used as a pendant. However, with the pass-through hole(s), as well as the fairly symmetrical chipped away cusp area, I'm seeing at least some chance of it being an adornment of some sort, by someone, at some time. Heck, maybe it was found and worn in the 1940's? Then again...? Regardless, it's a nice specimen. Cheers.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only way this could be considered an artifact is if it had been found in context (Burial or village site- removed from fossil sites).

As it is the only thing that can be said is it may look like an artifact but nature likes to fool us.

Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys."

Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough."

 

My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection

My favorite thread on TFF.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, MrR said:

However, with the pass-through hole(s), as well as the fairly symmetrical chipped away cusp area, I'm seeing at least some chance of it being an adornment of some sort, by someone, at some time.

 

I think you could make your own dream come true:  You should wear this around your neck.  That way, it'll will become a pendant.  Be certain to finish the pholadid burrow so that there is no sharp edge to cut your cordage.  In doing so, you will have turned the tooth into an artifact . . . Not a Native American artifact, of course, but a modern SoCal artifact.

  :yay-smiley-1:

 

  • I found this Informative 1

http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MrR said:

While it looks different, i.e. less refined, than the one in the referenced paper,

Well a factor for that would that this one was found 2 states below where the paper is based in. The Native Americans can be different and have differing styles. That's just some of my thoughts

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

Be certain to finish the pholadid burrow so that there is no sharp edge to cut your cordage.

:dinothumb:

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

My Library

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The hardest part about science is trying to set aside our human emotion, beliefs and conformational biases. While we can't technically disprove it wasn't an artifact, we also can't prove that it is. There are some similarities, but also large differences. 

 

Im going deep into this real quick....This is how I go about critical thinking when I see something like this with science. 

 

Think about a murder investigation..what if we had to link somebody to a murder by proving that was a native american artifact? The family trying to get justice wants to believe they found the murderer and that tooth is indeed a pendant. The family of the accused does not think you can link the tooth to being a artifact because of the above discussed. Each person can sit and argue all day because they both have at least something they can relate to to fit their view. 

 

What if you were accused?? Do you still believe its an artifact? Your emotional investment in the question will dictate your answer. 

 

Our brains are so flawed as humans we can dictate more than we imagine just because we wish something to be so....we will find a way for it to be so. 

 

 

My take: looks suspicious....but I also know nothing about shark teeth and its relation to native american artifacts. Based on what I read above it would be cool if it was an artifact but I don't think it is. We can't come up with a whole new tribe of native american shark tooth artifacts to fit the new tooth shape so that it fits our view. See how easy it is to trap yourself with emotional investment?? This applies to science and life. 

 

Just a fun thought experiment!! :)

 

 

Al

  • I found this Informative 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the fashion advice and cordage-cutting wit, Harry Pristis.  Seriously though, even when I was a 15 year-old surf-grom, I wouldn't have worn a shark tooth around this precious neck. True, I did have a set of wooden beads strung on leather, but it was a short phase I went through, and they had nothing but rounded edges.

 

I do see a lot of shark-tooth necklaces being offered for sale. If nobody outside of North-Central Florida is buying them ;), there must be a monstrous glut out there. Believe me though, I won't be helping decrease any such glut. :trex: Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW: If that tooth was mine, and I was to offer it for sale, I wouldn't be describing it as a necklace or anything. I agree that it has no provable basis in fact. I apologize to the OP for pulling the thread off-topic.  Cheers.

 

  • I found this Informative 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/4/2018 at 4:50 PM, Al Tahan said:

The hardest part about science is trying to set aside our human emotion, beliefs and conformational biases. While we can't technically disprove it wasn't an artifact, we also can't prove that it is. There are some similarities, but also large differences. 

 

Im going deep into this real quick....This is how I go about critical thinking when I see something like this with science. 

 

Think about a murder investigation..what if we had to link somebody to a murder by proving that was a native american artifact? The family trying to get justice wants to believe they found the murderer and that tooth is indeed a pendant. The family of the accused does not think you can link the tooth to being a artifact because of the above discussed. Each person can sit and argue all day because they both have at least something they can relate to to fit their view. 

 

What if you were accused?? Do you still believe its an artifact? Your emotional investment in the question will dictate your answer. 

 

Our brains are so flawed as humans we can dictate more than we imagine just because we wish something to be so....we will find a way for it to be so. 

 

 

My take: looks suspicious....but I also know nothing about shark teeth and its relation to native american artifacts. Based on what I read above it would be cool if it was an artifact but I don't think it is. We can't come up with a whole new tribe of native american shark tooth artifacts to fit the new tooth shape so that it fits our view. See how easy it is to trap yourself with emotional investment?? This applies to science and life. 

 

Just a fun thought experiment!! :)

 

 

Al

Wow that was deep and I enjoyed reading this long blurb. Your comment; "but I also know nothing about shark teeth and its relation to native american artifacts." literally made me laugh out loud. :) I do agree with @SailingAlongToo that Dr. Godfrey should be able to shed some light on the subject.

  • I found this Informative 1

Do or do not. There is no try. - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, RickNC said:

This one is bored dead center. 

IMG_7040.JPG

That's another nice example of multiple boring in a considered to be lithic substrate.

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

My Library

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coincidentally, I found another image of a nicely centered bore through a shark tooth's root. It's about 1/2 way down the page on Mark Renz' site, in his "Sloth" section. Thinking it may have been an artifact, he turned it over to the proper authorities in Florida.
Excitement of Bored Meg Tooth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm wondering what was the conclusion of the specialist from FMNH? Drill hole for sure, but from who?

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

My Library

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...