Jump to content

Vertebrae: spinosaurus? Carcharadontasaurs? Crocodile?


Still_human

Recommended Posts

40 minutes ago, SULLY said:

It looks like KemKem material. Is It another auction site piece, or do you have the ability to do some close up pictures?

It's not on any sites, it's a friend of mines, but I can't get anymore pics at the moment. Maybe tomorrow, if I talk to him. Where would you want close-ups of? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, if it's a rib cage vert I guess it can't be from a spinosaurus, cause it doesn't look like it's a sail vert, does it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a frankenvertebra. The top and bottom do not belong together. The bottom is a dorsal vertebra centrum or possibly an anterior caudal. The top I don't know for sure.

 

I'd say stay away from this one as there are much better specimens out there.

  • I found this Informative 3

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/26/2018 at 5:29 AM, LordTrilobite said:

This is a frankenvertebra. The top and bottom do not belong together. The bottom is a dorsal vertebra centrum or possibly an anterior caudal. The top I don't know for sure.

 

I'd say stay away from this one as there are much better specimens out there.

 

20 hours ago, SULLY said:

That was where I was going to kinda go. It looks fabricated to me unfortunately 

Really? Wow! Indefinitely cant see it. Could u point out what u mean? In one picture I sort of see where there's a matrix area that could hide something, but it still looks like it fits so perfectly, to me. And on other pictures, like the first one, I can't see even the slightest indication of it not being smoothly and clearly one solid piece. I thought I had a pretty good handle on fabricated Kem Kem stuff, but if this is, I still need a lot of work:/

Don't worry, this isn't something I'm looking to buy. It's a friend's piece.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Still_human said:

 

Really? Wow! Indefinitely cant see it. Could u point out what u mean? In one picture I sort of see where there's a matrix area that could hide something, but it still looks like it fits so perfectly, to me. And on other pictures, like the first one, I can't see even the slightest indication of it not being smoothly and clearly one solid piece. I thought I had a pretty good handle on fabricated Kem Kem stuff, but if this is, I still need a lot of work:/

Don't worry, this isn't something I'm looking to buy. It's a friend's piece.

Of course, I'd love to point out what I mean. So you have the centrum that's a bit more yellow/ochre coloured. Then you have the top that's a bit more reddish in colour. There's some "repair" in the middle bit that's a dull brown in colour. This is where I'm suggesting the two pieces have been joined into a single frankenvert.

Generally these kinds of composites and repairs have a bucket load of fake matrix on them that's local matrix mixed in with glue and it often looks a bit smudgy without much large features and a general solid colour without much variation.

 

But since you say it's a friends piece. Have you held it yourself? Perhaps you have seen some detail that's not immediately obvious to us on these photos. If you can see where the two pieces clearly meet perhaps you could take a photo of that area and show us? Judging from just these photos I think it's a frankenvert. But I could of course be wrong and I'm happy to learn in case I'm wrong.

  • I found this Informative 2

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...
On 12/27/2018 at 3:37 PM, LordTrilobite said:

Of course, I'd love to point out what I mean. So you have the centrum that's a bit more yellow/ochre coloured. Then you have the top that's a bit more reddish in colour. There's some "repair" in the middle bit that's a dull brown in colour. This is where I'm suggesting the two pieces have been joined into a single frankenvert.

Generally these kinds of composites and repairs have a bucket load of fake matrix on them that's local matrix mixed in with glue and it often looks a bit smudgy without much large features and a general solid colour without much variation.

 

But since you say it's a friends piece. Have you held it yourself? Perhaps you have seen some detail that's not immediately obvious to us on these photos. If you can see where the two pieces clearly meet perhaps you could take a photo of that area and show us? Judging from just these photos I think it's a frankenvert. But I could of course be wrong and I'm happy to learn in case I'm wrong.

Oh, no, sadly i haven't seen it in person. He lives far away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

There's a few more Ive come across I was wondering about. Any idea what this is? It's not a carchar, is it?

 

these are apparently all Kem Kem

IMG_9759.PNG

IMG_9760.PNG

IMG_9761.PNG

IMG_9762.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is this spino? It looks like it has a sort of thin shape like spino verts do. I don't know if that's an exclusive spino feature or not, though.

IMG_9755.PNG

IMG_9756.PNG

IMG_9757.PNG

IMG_9758.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another somewhat thin vert I was wondering about. This one has definitely had work done in it, hasn't it?

IMG_9751.PNG

IMG_9752.PNG

IMG_9753.PNG

IMG_9754.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would this be carchar? I feel like the 3rd pic is a very carchar characteristic shape, isn't it?

IMG_9747.PNG

IMG_9748.PNG

IMG_9749.PNG

IMG_9750.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the last one. I have no idea. I don't think Ive ever seen a vert with a similar preserved shape as this, and the extensions on the side are a little confusing to me. 

IMG_9745.PNG

IMG_9746.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

There's a few more Ive come across I was wondering about. Any idea what this is? It's not a carchar, is it?

 

these are apparently all Kem Kem

IMG_9759.PNGIMG_9760.PNGIMG_9761.PNGIMG_9762.PNG

Seems like a bunch of random pieces of bone stuck together. Though it looks like there might be a vertebra in there somewhere. Looks very much tampered with. I would avoid this one.

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

Is this spino? It looks like it has a sort of thin shape like spino verts do. I don't know if that's an exclusive spino feature or not, though.

IMG_9755.PNGIMG_9756.PNGIMG_9757.PNGIMG_9758.PNG

Bad composite.

The centrum looks very much like a very small Spinosaurid dorsal vertebra. That or a croc caudal centrum. I'm not sure about the top though, it seems disjointed and weird. Most likely the neural arch was glued on, but I wouldn't completely rule this one out as being real. With no confirmation on whether the top belongs here I don't think this can be properly identified as either Spino or croc. I would lean a little towards a croc though because the centrum seems a little wide.

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

Another somewhat thin vert I was wondering about. This one has definitely had work done in it, hasn't it?

IMG_9751.PNGIMG_9752.PNGIMG_9753.PNGIMG_9754.PNG

Bad composite. Either dorsal or caudal centrum with a random bone pieces stuck to it. Avoid.

 

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

Would this be carchar? I feel like the 3rd pic is a very carchar characteristic shape, isn't it?

IMG_9747.PNGIMG_9748.PNGIMG_9749.PNGIMG_9750.PNG

This is definitely croc. But even on this one I'm not sure the top and bottom belong together. But if it's a composite, then it's a much better one than the other monstrosities because both the top and bottom here belong to a croc cervical vertebra. (with a slight chance the top could belong to a croc dorsal if it's a composite.) The third pic is also very characteristic of croc with the wide zygapophyses.

 

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

And the last one. I have no idea. I don't think Ive ever seen a vert with a similar preserved shape as this, and the extensions on the side are a little confusing to me. 

IMG_9745.PNGIMG_9746.PNG

Yikes! Horrible composite. Stay away. This is a croc cervical centrum with a bunch of random garbage stuck to it. Definitely the worst one.

 

 

Most of these are pretty bad typical Kem Kem composites/fakes. Only the defintie croc cervical vert seems like it might possibly be worth the trouble. But even that one isn't certain.

  • I found this Informative 3

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice job describing this junk LordTrilobite.  That last one should carry a banner on how not to composite a vert.

  • I found this Informative 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel this would be a carcharadontosaur dorsal vertbrae again this one isn't for sale but should give an impression of what the Centrum looks like 

received_557568331431697.jpeg

  • I found this Informative 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

Seems like a bunch of random pieces of bone stuck together. Though it looks like there might be a vertebra in there somewhere. Looks very much tampered with. I would avoid this one.

lol I like the way you put that! "...somewhere in there" :)

 

Thank you SO much for the detailed responses for everything! Very informative! I'm actually not considering buying them,  I'm just trying to learn about, understand, and ID different bones, and to be able to spot fakes and composites, and what exactly to watch for that exposes said junk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Troodon said:

Nice job describing this junk LordTrilobite.  That last one should carry a banner on how not to composite a vert.

Maybe someone should publish a picture book! .....if books were still a thing:/ Just Kem Kem problematic bones could easily be as thick as a set of dictionaries!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Haravex said:

I feel this would be a carcharadontosaur dorsal vertbrae again this one isn't for sale but should give an impression of what the Centrum looks like 

received_557568331431697.jpeg

So some carchar verts have a slight laterally compressed shape like spinos do?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Haravex said:

I feel this would be a carcharadontosaur dorsal vertbrae again this one isn't for sale but should give an impression of what the Centrum looks like 

received_557568331431697.jpeg

Actually I think this might be too slender for Carcharodontosaurid.

 

2 minutes ago, Still_human said:

Maybe someone should publish a picture book! .....if books were still a thing:/ Just Kem Kem problematic bones could easily be as thick as a set of dictionaries!

Well I have been uploading a whole lot of photos of my Kem Kem bones over the years. My last four were all Spinosaur bones. I have a bunch of vertebrae on there, though I'm still working on photos for dorsal Spinosaur vertebrae.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/collections-database/chordata/dinosaurs/

  • I found this Informative 1

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another alternative that we've used before is to examine publications from South America that may be close relatives.   

Here is one on Tyrannotitan showing some dorsal vertebrae which should not be that different than Carcharodontosaurids in the Kem Kem

Screenshot_20190511-144046.jpg.cacb5ec104d88c5e2c7c95be5b136370.jpg

Screenshot_20190511-144022.thumb.jpg.e8416d0169c713bf7e0f35fb20123d1a.jpg

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273143583_Osteology_and_phylogenetic_relationships_of_Tyrannotitan_chubutensis_Novas_de_Valais_Vickers-Rich_and_Rich_2005_Theropoda_Carcharodontosauridae_from_the_Lower_Cretaceous_of_Patagonia_Argentina

  • I found this Informative 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also this really useful image from Pete Larson's twitter building an Acrocanthosaurus. It gives a really good look at the different dorsal and caudal vertebrae.

5cd7ea9f8898f_CozNiwUWAAACQgL.jpglarge.thumb.jpg.47f9095b2596a3c202f50bbe5805605c.jpg

 

 

I personally have this rather fragmentary dorsal vertebra that I think might be Carcharodontosaurid specifically because of the robustness. It's much too fat for Spinosaurid and too heavily built for Sauropod. And it's much too large for any smaller animal. And what's left of it fits with Carcharodontosaur.

carchar_dorsal_vert.thumb.jpg.bb1604ddcd32454eceb6fae8599d18c4.jpg

  • I found this Informative 1

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

So would this vert of Haravax's be a carchar vert then? It seems longer than the verts shown in that reconstruction and other images. If it's compressed from the side, which it looks to be, wouldn't it fit as a spino? Or could it still be a carchar?

IMG_0323.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LordT, this is spectacular!!!! Not only is it a beautiful fossil to begin with, those predation marks are textbook amazing! The one in the top picture looks like an entire upper or lower jaw. I wouldn't think an animal could reach quite that far onto the bone, but it sure LOOKS like something did! IMG_0324.PNG.3acadcaa0666a9cd07a6ad707aefc4e7.PNG

 

Predation marks are some of the most interesting aspects a fossil can have, to me. Theyre like little "Play" buttons to the imagination!

  • I found this Informative 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...