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Still_human

Vertebrae: spinosaurus? Carcharadontasaurs? Crocodile?

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Still_human

Can anybody tell what this vertebra is from? I believe it's from Kem Kem.

 

*would this be a rib cage vert?

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SULLY

It looks like KemKem material. Is It another auction site piece, or do you have the ability to do some close up pictures?

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Still_human
40 minutes ago, SULLY said:

It looks like KemKem material. Is It another auction site piece, or do you have the ability to do some close up pictures?

It's not on any sites, it's a friend of mines, but I can't get anymore pics at the moment. Maybe tomorrow, if I talk to him. Where would you want close-ups of? 

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Still_human

Actually, if it's a rib cage vert I guess it can't be from a spinosaurus, cause it doesn't look like it's a sail vert, does it?

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LordTrilobite

This is a frankenvertebra. The top and bottom do not belong together. The bottom is a dorsal vertebra centrum or possibly an anterior caudal. The top I don't know for sure.

 

I'd say stay away from this one as there are much better specimens out there.

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SULLY

That was where I was going to kinda go. It looks fabricated to me unfortunately 

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Still_human
On 12/26/2018 at 5:29 AM, LordTrilobite said:

This is a frankenvertebra. The top and bottom do not belong together. The bottom is a dorsal vertebra centrum or possibly an anterior caudal. The top I don't know for sure.

 

I'd say stay away from this one as there are much better specimens out there.

 

20 hours ago, SULLY said:

That was where I was going to kinda go. It looks fabricated to me unfortunately 

Really? Wow! Indefinitely cant see it. Could u point out what u mean? In one picture I sort of see where there's a matrix area that could hide something, but it still looks like it fits so perfectly, to me. And on other pictures, like the first one, I can't see even the slightest indication of it not being smoothly and clearly one solid piece. I thought I had a pretty good handle on fabricated Kem Kem stuff, but if this is, I still need a lot of work:/

Don't worry, this isn't something I'm looking to buy. It's a friend's piece.

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LordTrilobite
1 hour ago, Still_human said:

 

Really? Wow! Indefinitely cant see it. Could u point out what u mean? In one picture I sort of see where there's a matrix area that could hide something, but it still looks like it fits so perfectly, to me. And on other pictures, like the first one, I can't see even the slightest indication of it not being smoothly and clearly one solid piece. I thought I had a pretty good handle on fabricated Kem Kem stuff, but if this is, I still need a lot of work:/

Don't worry, this isn't something I'm looking to buy. It's a friend's piece.

Of course, I'd love to point out what I mean. So you have the centrum that's a bit more yellow/ochre coloured. Then you have the top that's a bit more reddish in colour. There's some "repair" in the middle bit that's a dull brown in colour. This is where I'm suggesting the two pieces have been joined into a single frankenvert.

Generally these kinds of composites and repairs have a bucket load of fake matrix on them that's local matrix mixed in with glue and it often looks a bit smudgy without much large features and a general solid colour without much variation.

 

But since you say it's a friends piece. Have you held it yourself? Perhaps you have seen some detail that's not immediately obvious to us on these photos. If you can see where the two pieces clearly meet perhaps you could take a photo of that area and show us? Judging from just these photos I think it's a frankenvert. But I could of course be wrong and I'm happy to learn in case I'm wrong.

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Still_human
On 12/27/2018 at 3:37 PM, LordTrilobite said:

Of course, I'd love to point out what I mean. So you have the centrum that's a bit more yellow/ochre coloured. Then you have the top that's a bit more reddish in colour. There's some "repair" in the middle bit that's a dull brown in colour. This is where I'm suggesting the two pieces have been joined into a single frankenvert.

Generally these kinds of composites and repairs have a bucket load of fake matrix on them that's local matrix mixed in with glue and it often looks a bit smudgy without much large features and a general solid colour without much variation.

 

But since you say it's a friends piece. Have you held it yourself? Perhaps you have seen some detail that's not immediately obvious to us on these photos. If you can see where the two pieces clearly meet perhaps you could take a photo of that area and show us? Judging from just these photos I think it's a frankenvert. But I could of course be wrong and I'm happy to learn in case I'm wrong.

Oh, no, sadly i haven't seen it in person. He lives far away.

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Still_human

There's a few more Ive come across I was wondering about. Any idea what this is? It's not a carchar, is it?

 

these are apparently all Kem Kem

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Still_human

Is this spino? It looks like it has a sort of thin shape like spino verts do. I don't know if that's an exclusive spino feature or not, though.

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Still_human

Another somewhat thin vert I was wondering about. This one has definitely had work done in it, hasn't it?

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Still_human

Would this be carchar? I feel like the 3rd pic is a very carchar characteristic shape, isn't it?

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Still_human

And the last one. I have no idea. I don't think Ive ever seen a vert with a similar preserved shape as this, and the extensions on the side are a little confusing to me. 

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LordTrilobite
2 hours ago, Still_human said:

There's a few more Ive come across I was wondering about. Any idea what this is? It's not a carchar, is it?

 

these are apparently all Kem Kem

IMG_9759.PNGIMG_9760.PNGIMG_9761.PNGIMG_9762.PNG

Seems like a bunch of random pieces of bone stuck together. Though it looks like there might be a vertebra in there somewhere. Looks very much tampered with. I would avoid this one.

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

Is this spino? It looks like it has a sort of thin shape like spino verts do. I don't know if that's an exclusive spino feature or not, though.

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Bad composite.

The centrum looks very much like a very small Spinosaurid dorsal vertebra. That or a croc caudal centrum. I'm not sure about the top though, it seems disjointed and weird. Most likely the neural arch was glued on, but I wouldn't completely rule this one out as being real. With no confirmation on whether the top belongs here I don't think this can be properly identified as either Spino or croc. I would lean a little towards a croc though because the centrum seems a little wide.

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

Another somewhat thin vert I was wondering about. This one has definitely had work done in it, hasn't it?

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Bad composite. Either dorsal or caudal centrum with a random bone pieces stuck to it. Avoid.

 

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

Would this be carchar? I feel like the 3rd pic is a very carchar characteristic shape, isn't it?

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This is definitely croc. But even on this one I'm not sure the top and bottom belong together. But if it's a composite, then it's a much better one than the other monstrosities because both the top and bottom here belong to a croc cervical vertebra. (with a slight chance the top could belong to a croc dorsal if it's a composite.) The third pic is also very characteristic of croc with the wide zygapophyses.

 

2 hours ago, Still_human said:

And the last one. I have no idea. I don't think Ive ever seen a vert with a similar preserved shape as this, and the extensions on the side are a little confusing to me. 

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Yikes! Horrible composite. Stay away. This is a croc cervical centrum with a bunch of random garbage stuck to it. Definitely the worst one.

 

 

Most of these are pretty bad typical Kem Kem composites/fakes. Only the defintie croc cervical vert seems like it might possibly be worth the trouble. But even that one isn't certain.

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Troodon

Nice job describing this junk LordTrilobite.  That last one should carry a banner on how not to composite a vert.

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Haravex

I feel this would be a carcharadontosaur dorsal vertbrae again this one isn't for sale but should give an impression of what the Centrum looks like 

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Still_human
21 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

Seems like a bunch of random pieces of bone stuck together. Though it looks like there might be a vertebra in there somewhere. Looks very much tampered with. I would avoid this one.

lol I like the way you put that! "...somewhere in there" :)

 

Thank you SO much for the detailed responses for everything! Very informative! I'm actually not considering buying them,  I'm just trying to learn about, understand, and ID different bones, and to be able to spot fakes and composites, and what exactly to watch for that exposes said junk.

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Still_human
21 hours ago, Troodon said:

Nice job describing this junk LordTrilobite.  That last one should carry a banner on how not to composite a vert.

Maybe someone should publish a picture book! .....if books were still a thing:/ Just Kem Kem problematic bones could easily be as thick as a set of dictionaries!

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Still_human
3 hours ago, Haravex said:

I feel this would be a carcharadontosaur dorsal vertbrae again this one isn't for sale but should give an impression of what the Centrum looks like 

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So some carchar verts have a slight laterally compressed shape like spinos do?

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LordTrilobite
3 hours ago, Haravex said:

I feel this would be a carcharadontosaur dorsal vertbrae again this one isn't for sale but should give an impression of what the Centrum looks like 

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Actually I think this might be too slender for Carcharodontosaurid.

 

2 minutes ago, Still_human said:

Maybe someone should publish a picture book! .....if books were still a thing:/ Just Kem Kem problematic bones could easily be as thick as a set of dictionaries!

Well I have been uploading a whole lot of photos of my Kem Kem bones over the years. My last four were all Spinosaur bones. I have a bunch of vertebrae on there, though I'm still working on photos for dorsal Spinosaur vertebrae.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/collections-database/chordata/dinosaurs/

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Troodon

Another alternative that we've used before is to examine publications from South America that may be close relatives.   

Here is one on Tyrannotitan showing some dorsal vertebrae which should not be that different than Carcharodontosaurids in the Kem Kem

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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273143583_Osteology_and_phylogenetic_relationships_of_Tyrannotitan_chubutensis_Novas_de_Valais_Vickers-Rich_and_Rich_2005_Theropoda_Carcharodontosauridae_from_the_Lower_Cretaceous_of_Patagonia_Argentina

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LordTrilobite

Also this really useful image from Pete Larson's twitter building an Acrocanthosaurus. It gives a really good look at the different dorsal and caudal vertebrae.

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I personally have this rather fragmentary dorsal vertebra that I think might be Carcharodontosaurid specifically because of the robustness. It's much too fat for Spinosaurid and too heavily built for Sauropod. And it's much too large for any smaller animal. And what's left of it fits with Carcharodontosaur.

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