Shellseeker Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I have recently been blessed to acquire some excellent Shark Tooth Hill (STH) marine mammal teeth. Not totally happy on not knowing what exactly I have, I am reaching out to STH experts to enhance my knowledge and understanding (but mostly to identify these fossil). One TFF member who has extensive knowledge of STH is @ynot because he sent me matrix and micros from STH. So, Tony please invite other STH enthusiasts to assist here. After spending time looking at the Pinnipeds: Seals, Sea Lions, and Walruses teeth, both fossil and modern, I am confused about a lot of things: Here is one of my teeth to ID: Seems easy, 25 mm Seal molar.... or is it ? On a $$ForSale website , I see this STH Sea Lion tooth -- molar ? that at 1.25 inches looks the same.. So do Seals and Sea Lions have the same/similar teeth only larger? Here are 3 teeth where I would be pleased with confirmation, identification, alternate possibilities. Is this incisor an incisor or a molar ? Is it the approximate size of a seal incisor? A harbor seal's incisors for comparison. Here are the canines of a Weddell Seal... At 38 mm, Can this canine be Seal, maybe lower jaw.... Lots of questions, Hopefully will trigger a good discussion.. Jack 5 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Can't help but lovely fossils! Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Indeed, Jack--I think Tony is your best bet for help on these. Bobby @Boesse might also be of help on the whale tooth (and possibly on the pinnipeds as well). Nice looking acquisitions. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 @Boesse Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I will try, but Bobby will probably correct all My guesses. First three teeth look like Allodesmus kernesi molars. The whale tooth I can not comment on. The seal incisor looks more like a molar.' but the root seems long. The last one looks like a cetatean tooth because of the root shape, but I don't know which one. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFOOLEY Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 @isurus90064 is all about STH material...he may have some thoughts. Sharktooth Hill - Pinnipeds "I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?" ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrR Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Caldigger is known to toss around some shovel-loads of dirt at STH. I suspect that he might be of some assistance when he checks in. Last time I was at STH I found an Allodesmus like the first ones shown, only it has some root missing. The other teeth are very interesting as well. I'll follow this thread so that I might have a shot at ID'ing any such finds I might stumble across in the future. Very nice teeth, with surprisingly complete roots. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 @caldigger, @siteseer Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 hour ago, ynot said: I will try, but Bobby will probably correct all My guesses. First three teeth look like Allodesmus kernesi molars. The whale tooth I can not comment on. The seal incisor looks more like a molar.' but the root seems long. The last one looks like a cetatean tooth because of the root shape, but I don't know which one. Tony, Thanks for putting yourself out there. More difficult when you know expertise coming behind you. 1) So you are saying Sea Lion for the 1st set of molars 2) The whale tooth is the one I had my most confident ID on 3) I am not sure that it is an incisor, and not sure that it is seal rather than sea lion 4) I saw that hump and wondered if it was determinate. Good guesses!! This thread is exceeding my expectations... A source of my confusion is 1) great similarity between all Pinnipeds at STH 2) thinking that there is significant size difference between Seals and Sea Lions, which might ? translate to significant differences in their tooth size. see below 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Shellseeker said: 1) So you are saying Sea Lion for the 1st set of molars Allodesmus is not a pinniped, just closely related. 3 hours ago, Shellseeker said: 3) I am not sure that it is an incisor, and not sure that it is seal rather than sea lion We are in the same boat on this. 3 hours ago, Shellseeker said: A source of my confusion is 1) great similarity between all Pinnipeds at STH 2) thinking that there is significant size difference between Seals and Sea Lions, which might ? translate to significant differences in their tooth size. Yep, that is about the size of it. 1 Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just for clarity (from collections)... Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Class: Mammalia Order: Carnivora Family: Desmtophocidea Genus: Allodesmus Species: A. kernensis Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 Has there been Scientific contention? Wikipedia did not get the message. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 52 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Has there been Scientific contention? I was going by what I think Bobby told Me, but I probably got it wrong (Not My strong point and most I know on the subject has been learned on TFF.) Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I too have recently uncovered one of these long narrow rooted teeth and am equally bepuzzled by it. All others I have ever found are like the second picture in this post with much shorter root length. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBMugu Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 9 hours ago, caldigger said: I too have recently uncovered one of these long narrow rooted teeth and am equally bepuzzled by it. All others I have ever found are like the second picture in this post with much shorter root length. That's a really nice one! I don't think I have seen one that complete. Whole root and enamel. Nice find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 On 1/7/2019 at 11:01 PM, caldigger said: I too have recently uncovered one of these long narrow rooted teeth and am equally bepuzzled by it. All others I have ever found are like the second picture in this post with much shorter root length. Great looking tooth !!! Love canines with golden brown enamel. Looking at the STH fauna map, there are more possibilities for this one beyond marine mammal, so might be something "unexpected" and spectacular. Not knowing the ID would be an inch I could not scratch. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 On 1/7/2019 at 8:01 PM, caldigger said: uncovered one of these long narrow rooted teeth I think this is a seal/sea lion canine tooth. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 20 minutes ago, ynot said: I think this is a seal/sea lion canine tooth. This is a difficult tooth because it is NOT curved.. Leopard Seal below: A straight tooth is more likely whale... we need an animal that is so large that it does not have the curve required of underslung/overslung jaw.. Aulophyseter Morricei has such teeth, although different from this tooth Sea Lion Weddell Seal 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: This is a difficult tooth because it is NOT curved.. What about the modified second incisor? Those teeth do not show a curve like the canine does. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, ynot said: What about the modified second incisor? Those teeth do not show a curve like the canine does. Good response. I was looking at the upper teeth on the Sea Lion between the canines. It might be long enough and straight enough... @caldigger what is the length of your canine? Could be a 3 inch upper tooth, mostly straight.. 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 The tooth I posted is 5cm ( 2") However, I have this one ( same length) which I believe to be the canine. The skinnier one does have a crown more consistent with that of a cetacean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 15 hours ago, caldigger said: The tooth I posted is 5cm ( 2") However, I have this one ( same length) which I believe to be the canine. ...... The skinnier one does have a crown more consistent with that of a cetacean. The shape and curvature of this tooth reminds me of bear or wolf canines I have found in the Peace River, Florida. The tooth below does not. On 1/7/2019 at 11:01 PM, caldigger said: I too have recently uncovered one of these long narrow rooted teeth and am equally bepuzzled by it. All others I have ever found are like the second picture in this post with much shorter root length. Here is a bone valley whale tooth that matches the approximate size, enamel/root composition but still have the bulge in the root and the "stripping" in the enamel typical of whale... I hope that Bobby gets a chance to see and comment on this tooth of yours. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 5 hours ago, Shellseeker said: this tooth reminds me of bear or wolf canines Terrestrial mammal fossil are extremely rare in the STH bone bed. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 52 minutes ago, ynot said: Terrestrial mammal fossil are extremely rare in the STH bone bed. Agree Tony, I was just making the point that Canines of Sea Lions look a lot like canines of wolves or bears....etc "Form follows Function" Most mammal canines seem to look "almost" the same. Caldigger's slim, straight tooth looks different from the pattern I have in mind for canines. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Hi Jack, I just found this thread. In the absence of a reply from Bobby, I will take a shot at your teeth, though I'm mostly in agreement with Tony. The first one looks like an Allodesmus tooth. Teeth of this form are termed "postcanine teeth" because there isn't a morphological change from the first tooth behind the canine to the back of the jaw. I would assume, however, that this tooth is towards the back because of the short root. The tooth photo you pulled from another site is also Allodesmus. The tooth identified as Aulophyseter morricei may be one but it's pretty worn and there are few whale tooth forms without enamel on the crowns as you've seen from Florida sites. There is an article on fossil sperm whales (Kimura et al., 2006) and it shows a photo of an Aulophyseter tooth. Unfortunately, the shot is not well-lit and the photocopier I used was not the best so my copy of the figure is too blurry to help. The tooth identified as a "seal incisor" appears to be just a small Allodesmus tooth - perhaps a juvenile. At this point we have be careful with terms like "seal" and sea lion. There were no seals in the Sharktooth Hill Fauna. Early seas seem to originate from Europe spreading into the Atlantic (teeth found at Lee Creek) by the Middle Miocene and appearing in the Pacific by Early Pliocene. Allodesmus is not technically a sea lion in that it doesn't belong to the modern group we know as sea lions. Allodesmus is a relative of sea lions but I don't know the latest on where it fits among pinnipeds. I should add that the pinnipeds include seals, sea lions, walruses, and extinct groups like Allodesmus. The view of the harbor seal's incisors does, however provide a good illustration of what an Allodesmus incisor looks like - rather straight and narrow with a nub-like crown that can vary a little in shape. The tooth marked as a "canine" looks more like one of those unnamed whale teeth. Jess Kimura, T., Y. Hasegawa,. & L. G. Barnes, L. G. 2006. Fossil sperm whales (Cetacea, Physeteridae) from Gunma and Ibaraki prefectures, Japan; with observations on the Miocene fossil sperm whale Scaldicetus shigensis Hirota and Barnes, 1995. Bulletin of the Gunma Museum of Natural History 10, 1-23. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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