Chase_E Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I am purchasing this dinosaur tooth from niger. I was told that it’s afrovenator, but that’s not possibly since teeth haven’t been identified from them yet. Anyone know what this could be? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 100% Afrovenator. The person selling them is very reputable and identified them on serration count which I can send you a paper on. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyBoy Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 First you need to have a specific locality, formation from Niger where it was found then you can check out the specifics in attached post. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimin013 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 It is Afrovenator.. a few of us know who originally acquired these teeth and he is a reliable person. Oh boy how this tooth and other afrovenator teeth from this seller have been around the forum! I've seen this one before and most certainly others have too. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyBoy Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 The tooth may be as described but without the proper Multivariate Analyses as Troodon post describes its just a guess. Many theropod teeth look identical and those from an area where little is published its that much more difficult. I would love to know what analysis was done by the seller on this tooth. If its observation like most sellers and collector's like to use its a big mistake. One thing Ive learned from this forum is not to trust any identification from anyone including a trusted seller or other collectors. You need to determine if its correct. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 4 hours ago, TyBoy said: The tooth may be as described but without the proper Multivariate Analyses as Troodon post describes its just a guess. Many theropod teeth look identical and those from an area where little is published its that much more difficult. I would love to know what analysis was done by the seller on this tooth. If its observation like most sellers and collector's like to use its a big mistake. One thing Ive learned from this forum is not to trust any identification from anyone including a trusted seller or other collectors. You need to determine if its correct. This is the article the collector who sold all these teeth is referencing: https://bioone.org/journalArticle/Download?fullDOI=10.4202%2fapp.00056.2013 Page 631 talks about Afrovenator teeth and serration density on both sides of the tooth as well as serrations size and shape. Further down in the article, it talks about more serrations densities for intermediate Megalosaurids from the Tiouraren formation and a pre-spinosaurid (non-scientific name). I showed both Frank and the seller this article which is where they got their information from. My Tooth, pictured below, is an Afrovenator tooth and I had Frank (Troodon) verify it for me so I had it labeled correctly. Exterior serrations end halfway up which is indicative of a Megalosaurid. Serration density (forgot the range) was also within the gap which is given by the published paper in the link above. @Chase_E if you want more evidence on the tooth you’re looking at, ask the seller what the serration density is and see if it lines up within the range listed in the paper. If it doesn’t, then you have an unidentified Megalosaur from the region which is just as neat! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase_E Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Runner64 said: This is the article the collector who sold all these teeth is referencing: https://bioone.org/journalArticle/Download?fullDOI=10.4202%2fapp.00056.2013 Page 631 talks about Afrovenator teeth and serration density on both sides of the tooth as well as serrations size and shape. Further down in the article, it talks about more serrations densities for intermediate Megalosaurids from the Tiouraren formation and a pre-spinosaurid (non-scientific name). I showed both Frank and the seller this article which is where they got their information from. My Tooth, pictured below, is an Afrovenator tooth and I had Frank (Troodon) verify it for me so I had it labeled correctly. Exterior serrations end halfway up which is indicative of a Megalosaurid. Serration density (forgot the range) was also within the gap which is given by the published paper in the link above. @Chase_E if you want more evidence on the tooth you’re looking at, ask the seller what the serration density is and see if it lines up within the range listed in the paper. If it doesn’t, then you have an unidentified Megalosaur from the region which is just as neat! Thank you so much for the information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down under fossil hunter Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 14 hours ago, TyBoy said: The tooth may be as described but without the proper Multivariate Analyses as Troodon post describes its just a guess. Many theropod teeth look identical and those from an area where little is published its that much more difficult. I would love to know what analysis was done by the seller on this tooth. If its observation like most sellers and collector's like to use its a big mistake. One thing Ive learned from this forum is not to trust any identification from anyone including a trusted seller or other collectors. You need to determine if its correct. Hopefully TyBoy you can now see the analysis that this tooth went through thanks to the documentation Runner64 has provided. This and other peer reviewed papers all match perfectly the above tooth with the teeth Sereno and others described as A. bakensis. This is a healthy discussion however the point you make could be used in any argument about any and every dinosaur tooth out there with the exception perhaps of the teeth still in the jaws of described specimens. Even Spinosaurus (the most commonly found dinosaur tooth) should be labeled as Spinosaurid s.p. as there is another Spinosaurid described from the Kem Kem beds but... people don’t do that. I am sure part of it is marketing as collectors prefer something that can be named. Paleontological discoveries are always being reviewed and changed, the validity of many US tyrannosaurs are still being debated and I am sure will continue to be for many more years. ultimately until another large Jurassic Megalosaurid is discovered in the Tiouraren of Niger I think it’s pretty safe for a collector to call this tooth Afrovenator. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyBoy Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 There is absolutely no information provided on the tooth in question including formation or locality so how can anyone identify it. Let get real Quantitative analysis need more than just Serration density as identified in Troodon post there are a number of factors to consider. Poor preservation also does not aid in identification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 hours ago, TyBoy said: There is absolutely no information provided on the tooth in question including formation or locality so how can anyone identify it. Let get real Quantitative analysis need more than just Serration density as identified in Troodon post there are a number of factors to consider. Poor preservation also does not aid in identification. The tooth is from Tiouraren Formation Agadez Region, Niger. I agree with you to an extent. It is known for a fact that Afrovenator did have teeth with a distal edge serration density of 3/mm and 2/mm on the mesial. It is also a known fact that serrations taper off around 1/2 to 2/3 of the mesial edge. Considering a tooth from the location has all these characteristics (proper serration densities and serration tapers), I believe it would be accurate to label it as Afrovenator cf. at least until another species is discovered or data points in another direction. However, I already said that there have been other serration densities discovered so if it is outside that range, should be labeled as Megalosaurid indet. because no known species are known nor have been described to have teeth with those characteristics. I agree serration density would not be the most ideal way to identify teeth, but take the Morisson formation for example. The difference between Allosaurus, Marshosaurus, Ceratosaurus, and Torvosaurus teeth are all based upon the serration density and shape and could likewise be applied here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulyb135 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 hours ago, TyBoy said: There is absolutely no information provided on the tooth in question including formation or locality so how can anyone identify it. Let get real Quantitative analysis need more than just Serration density as identified in Troodon post there are a number of factors to consider. Poor preservation also does not aid in identification. Tyboy - All of the teeth in question are Afrovenator as is my one attached. I am struggling to see your points against why the teeth in question wouldn’t be in your posts on this topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down under fossil hunter Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 5 hours ago, TyBoy said: There is absolutely no information provided on the tooth in question including formation or locality so how can anyone identify it. Let get real Quantitative analysis need more than just Serration density as identified in Troodon post there are a number of factors to consider. Poor preservation also does not aid in identification. Actually this statement is incorrect. There is considerable information on location and formation for this tooth. Including things like in-situ photos of the fossils as they were found. There were also other fossils of Tiouraren dinosaurs including Jobaria found in this lot that were shared with the owner of this tooth supporting its strong provenance. The fact that the original poster of this topic has not disclosed any of this means TyBoy that you are uninformed and making incorrect conclusions after only seeing a small part of the bigger picture. Feel free to PM me should you like further clarification on any of the above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyBoy Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Well there might be lots of information on this tooth but nothing about it other than its from Niger is presented in this topic so how is one to respond to the original post. Not sure why its a deep secret but have no plans to take it any further. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, TyBoy said: but nothing about it other than its from Niger is presented in this topic I agree that We can not be expected to know anything about the tooth other than what is presented in this thread. This is one of the reasons that it is important for the original poster to include all information available. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase_E Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 14 hours ago, TyBoy said: Well there might be lots of information on this tooth but nothing about it other than its from Niger is presented in this topic so how is one to respond to the original post. Not sure why its a deep secret but have no plans to take it any further. 13 hours ago, ynot said: I agree that We can not be expected to know anything about the tooth other than what is presented in this thread. This is one of the reasons that it is important for the original poster to include all information available. I apologize for not including that info. It was found in the Tiourarén Formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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