FossilGuy24 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I purchased this in Mexico legally many years ago. It was brought back through customs and inspected. Is this a stalactite and is there anyway to know it’s approximate age? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Sure looks like a stalactite to me. No idea how to age one of these. Probably can't be done by sight but maybe from an costly chemical analysis. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves64 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Count it's rings. Accomplishing the impossible means only that the boss will add it to your regular duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darktooth Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, daves64 said: Count it's rings. Yes I believe I heard this somewhere. Just like aging a tree. I like Trilo-butts and I cannot lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kato Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Hmm...I don't think we can equate a stalactite or stalagmite to a tree that has its annular growth rings tied to the seasons and rotation around the sun. From what I can recall from geology class a long time ago the thickness or age of a stalactite might not be coincident. A lot of it depends on the drip rate and type of material in solution. At the very least I would think something like this would take 10,000's of thousands of years. I can recall reading something about such cave formations taking millions of years to form. I may equally be wrong in all my recollections so perhaps a real cave loving trogolodyte type will chime in. I think the only way to tell is chemical analysis and expensive forensics. Again, not being anything like an expert. It seemed like stalactites (from ceiling) tended to be longer and pointy looking whereas the stalagmite (from the cave floor) tended to be more of this appearance. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darktooth Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 20 minutes ago, Kato said: Hmm...I don't think we can equate a stalactite or stalagmite to a tree that has its annular growth rings tied to the seasons and rotation around the sun. From what I can recall from geology class a long time ago the thickness or age of a stalactite might not be coincident. A lot of it depends on the drip rate and type of material in solution. At the very least I would think something like this would take 10,000's of thousands of years. I can recall reading something about such cave formations taking millions of years to form. I may equally be wrong in all my recollections so perhaps a real cave loving trogolodyte type will chime in. I think the only way to tell is chemical analysis and expensive forensics. Again, not being anything like an expert. It seemed like stalactites (from ceiling) tended to be longer and pointy looking whereas the stalagmite (from the cave floor) tended to be more of this appearance. I very well could be wrong but during a tour of Howe's Caverns, Coopertown New York, I do believe the tour guide stated something to the affect of growth rings. Again, maybe I am wrong or misunderstood what was being said. It was a few years ago and my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. I like Trilo-butts and I cannot lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kato Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Darktooth said: I very well could be wrong but during a tour of Howe's Caverns, Coopertown New York, I do believe the tour guide stated something to the affect of growth rings. Again, maybe I am wrong or misunderstood what was being said. It was a few years ago and my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. I don't think you are wrong. My memory just says the growth rings are measured against their own timeline and not necessarily that of trees. Obviously, there has to be moisture and rainy seasons can be cyclical so in some ways they are similar (yet different). In some caves moisture drips all year long. Some only drip after rains percolate through formations above them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 It is a stalagmite. It is broken on both ends. The only way to date it would be to know the formation/cave it came from. The amount of growth is dependant on the water percolating through the system and depositing calcite on the speleothems. I have heard that the growth rate of a stalagmite is 1/2 inch per century at the fastest. 3 Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 You can use U-Pb dating to get an age of the cave formation. U-Pb dating has been done in cave formations in the Grand Canyon to help find out about the geological history of the canyon. http://asmerom.unm.edu/Research/Papers/Grand Canyon.pdf Age and evolution of the Grand Canyon revealed by U-Pb dating of water table-type speleothems. Polyak V, et al. Science. 2008 Mar 7;319(5868):1377-80. doi: 10.1126/science.1151248. 1 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 It would have to have some uranium and lead in it.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves64 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I was making a joke.. and you guys have to go & get all brainy with it. I had never heard of counting the rings of a stalagmite or a stalactite. I just figured what the hey, it has rings, count em. 1 Accomplishing the impossible means only that the boss will add it to your regular duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilnut Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Beautiful piece. I like the flow ridges on the outside. Also it appears that maybe 2 stalactites merged together from the 2 sets of rings? Years ago I found one in a limestone quarry and at the center was a star shaped hole where the crystals met. Yours seems to have that same feature although somewhat blocked in the picture. Good memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, ynot said: It is a stalagmite. It is broken on both ends. I confess I know a lot less about cave formations than fossils but why couldn't a stalactite be broken at both ends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 It is not a fossil, but a huge and beautiful speleothem. " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 And again, I don't know caves that well, but I have heard that some cave formations might actually form on much faster time scales than once previously stated for all kinds. I have personally seen calcite forming in subway tunnels and on the surface of stone walls that could only have taken decades. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I hope it was obtained legally and morally. It would be a travesty if it was snapped off purely for a private collection. 1 John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 In Romania collecting speleothems is prohibited. 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paciphacops Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Stalagmites often do have annual rings, as most places have wetter and drier seasons, but prolonged droughts can interrupt the growth and throw off the estimates. Also, if it came from a very dry, desert area, the growth may have taken place 10's or even 100's of thousand years ago, when the climate was very different. Someone at my university uses uranium/thorium dating to study past climate by dating sections of stalagmites, and oxygen, carbon and other isotopes in new growth vs old growth to compare with ice age climatic conditions. Speleothems can contain a wealth of climate information. I have no issues with collecting a few specimens for science from an inconspicuous area in a cave (which I have done, with permission), but I really don't like seeing speleothems taken from caves simply for commercial purposes, even when done legally. To me, this not only destroys the aesthetics in the cave, but can also destroy one of our best records of the past climate. If the speleothems have been blasted out of a road cut or quarry, then that is a completely different situation, but these sorts of things are rarely documented when one purchases these items. "Don't force it, just use a bigger hammer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plax Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Many speleothems are taken from caves in limestone quarries. When the quarry is active caves are not something that is preserved. Taking them from caves is of course an immoral act. I thought stalagmites were more amorphous?? This looks like a stalactite to me but am no expert. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 23 minutes ago, Plax said: I thought stalagmites were more amorphous?? This looks like a stalactite to me but am no expert. I agree. Good point, Don. 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 From my point of view on this photo it is about a stalactite (which comes down from the ceiling), we can recognize it thanks to the small hole in the entrance, by which the water flows and forms the stalactite. Stalagmite (on the ground) is formed as the water settles on the ground with the minerals it contains. She doesn't have a hole. In France also it is forbidden to take them. Coco 1 ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoney Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) On 1/12/2019 at 6:33 PM, Coco said: From my point of view on this photo it is about a stalactite (which comes down from the ceiling), we can recognize it thanks to the small hole in the entrance, by which the water flows and forms the stalactite. Stalagmite (on the ground) is formed as the water settles on the ground with the minerals it contains. She doesn't have a hole. In France also it is forbidden to take them. Coco While out antique bottle/ relic hunting in the woods near my house in a few spots where people had illegally dumped bottles and cans etc. from 70-100 years ago I was having some luck around this one really big tree it staated getting dark so I headed home and came back a few days later to see if I missed anything and when I was walking away something made me look back and bam!!! While I was busy searching the ground this was 5ft. above my head!!! It’s in the remnants of a dead tree trunk placed in the fork of this tree so long ago that it will not budge one bit. That stalactite/ stalagmite I’m pretty sure at this point of my researching it over that last few days has been sitting in that stump for so long that it had started “growing” into it. If u zoom in on the pic look at the end coming out at the bottom of it. I’m so blown away by the find I’m on cloud 9!!! For me, an avid relic hunter and metal detectologist lol this was an unprecedented discovery. I posted in the ID section trying to find info on it and saw this thread today and thought I would chime in btw I did read on another site earlier today that they typically only grow an inch every 1000yrs! But I would definitely agree with the gentleman’s comment that growth would be relative to the amount of water the cave is experiencing. Any thoughts are appreciated. I’m new to the group as a result of this find but I’ve always been interested in things of this nature and thank everyone for their diligence in obtaining knowledgeable discovery. Cheers! PS. I can take some better pictures if asked. Edited January 11, 2021 by Stoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Generally dating is only possible if the source is known. U-Pb is cool stuff, but let me know if you find a Core Lab that does it. My labs are extremely well equipped, but not that well! I have a few speleothems from a sinkhole that formed on one of my family's farms years ago. Would be interesting to send them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caverat Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Definitely a stalactite as stated earlier due to the holes in the broken end. Soda straw stalactites are called that because they are a tube that water passes through. The other end doesn't appear to be broken, but rather shaped into a crude point, exposing an unnatural calcite surface. A very longtime caver, I've never seen a stalactite with a similar tip... The ridged side are also strange looking, but might be natural. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 On 1/11/2019 at 3:09 AM, Kato said: Hmm...I don't think we can equate a stalactite or stalagmite to a tree that has its annular growth rings tied to the seasons and rotation around the sun. From what I can recall from geology class a long time ago the thickness or age of a stalactite might not be coincident. A lot of it depends on the drip rate and type of material in solution. At the very least I would think something like this would take 10,000's of thousands of years. I can recall reading something about such cave formations taking millions of years to form. I may equally be wrong in all my recollections so perhaps a real cave loving trogolodyte type will chime in. I think the only way to tell is chemical analysis and expensive forensics. Again, not being anything like an expert. It seemed like stalactites (from ceiling) tended to be longer and pointy looking whereas the stalagmite (from the cave floor) tended to be more of this appearance. Kato is correct here. These speleothems are created when water, filled with a dissolved, reduced form of carbonate, flows into an area with an oxidized atmosphere. The change in partial pressure of carbon dioxide results in the oxidation of the dissolved carbonate, which then precipitates out into aragonite/calcite. The growth of the speleothems therefore are controlled by the amount of water flowing into the opening (“cave”), as well as the oxygen/CO2 balance in the cave. The relationship between these two factors and climatic conditions on the surface is complicated to say the least 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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