Rhinoceros Tooth Fossil?

[steelhead9]

It is a real coelodonta antiquitatis lower molar that has been removed from a section of mandible, hence the pristine condition of the roots. It actually is probably Siberian in origin. There is a fair amount of fossil trade between China and Russia, and many Chinese dealers offer Russian fossils for sale.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

2 hours ago, steelhead9 said:

It is a real coelodonta antiquitatis lower molar that has been removed from a section of mandible, hence the pristine condition of the roots. It actually is probably Siberian in origin. There is a fair amount of fossil trade between China and Russia, and many Chinese dealers offer Russian fossils for sale. 

 

There really is a strong trade between the Russians and the Chinese, but in this case here, this possibility is completely ruled out because the Russian Rhinoceroses teeth have been preserved by the permafrost ie they are not fossilized:

 

 

Which results in being completely different from my tooth that is definitely fossilized:

 

 

In addition, Rhinoceros fossils are old acquaintances of the inhabitants of Heilongjiang Province (黑龙江), China. The photo below, for example, is from the Heilongjiang Provincial Museum:

 

 

In the sediments dating from the Upper Pleistocene in Heilongjiang Province, many fossils of large mammals such as rhinoceroses and mammoths have been discovered, ie belonging to herbivorous and cold tolerant animals. The absolute age for these Heilongjiang fossils was determined by carbon 14 between 10,000 and 40,000 years of age.

 

[steelhead9]

8 hours ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

There really is a strong trade between the Russians and the Chinese, but in this case here, this possibility is completely ruled out because the Russian Rhinoceroses teeth have been preserved by the permafrost ie they are not fossilized:

 

 

Which results in being completely different from my tooth that is definitely fossilized:

 

 

In addition, Rhinoceros fossils are old acquaintances of the inhabitants of Heilongjiang Province (黑龙江), China. The photo below, for example, is from the Heilongjiang Provincial Museum:

 

 

In the sediments dating from the Upper Pleistocene in Heilongjiang Province, many fossils of large mammals such as rhinoceroses and mammoths have been discovered, ie belonging to herbivorous and cold tolerant animals. The absolute age for these Heilongjiang fossils was determined by carbon 14 between 10,000 and 40,000 years of age.

 

Very interesting information. I would offer a different point of view. If a specimen comes from the pleistocene, it is automatically fossilized as the definition of a fossil is the remains of a plant or animal that originates in a different time period from that in which we now live (ie. holocene). Mineralized is a different story. I agree that some Siberian pleistocene fossils have been preserved in permafrost without being mineralized, much like the LaBrea fossils that have been preserved in tar. I would point out, however, that I have removed a large number of woolly rhino teeth from jaw sections. Some are white with golden roots like your top picture, some are black with brown roots like yours, and some are a combination of the two. All are very mineralized. I was not really aware of pleistocene deposits in China, which is very good information, and I thank you for it. I am attaching photos of 3 teeth I have removed from woolly rhino jaws. These came from a Chinese dealer in Hong Kong. I assumed they were from Siberia, but now I see the likelihood of them being Chinese in origin. Also attached as a matter of general interest are the pathological roots on the black tooth where the tips have crisscrossed and a set of seed teeth I found just starting to grow in the jaw under a set of mature teeth.

[Shellseeker]

Wow.. Stunning photos.  Interesting Thread with lots of detailed information. Makes me think that we should "collect" the BEST informative threads , by fossil type, in a section of the forum.

There is a huge amount of Information about Rhino in TFF. My question is .. could we set a location for "Woolly Rhino" threads or have the search engine provide the top 10 BEST threads at the top of a search list.

@digit

@Kane

Basically TFF members or admins rate the best of the threads by topic and limit it to the best 5 or 10.

I was just looking at the the extant Sawfish threads as another candidate by @MarcoSr

[LordTrilobite]

2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Wow.. Stunning photos.  Interesting Thread with lots of detailed information. Makes me think that we should "collect" the BEST informative threads , by fossil type, in a section of the forum.

There is a huge amount of Information about Rhino in TFF. My question is .. could we set a location for "Woolly Rhino" threads or have the search engine provide the top 10 BEST threads at the top of a search list.

@digit

@Kane

Basically TFF members or admins rate the best of the threads by topic and limit it to the best 5 or 10.

I was just looking at the the extant Sawfish threads as another candidate by @MarcoSr

I have most of the important woolly rhino bones in my collections. I have just over a hundred bones (not counting duplicates). I have a few threads scattered about where I've posted a bunch of the bones. While I kinda plan to make what amounts to a big atlas of woolly rhino bones, getting all the photos done takes a lot of time. All that I've photographed can be found in the Collections section. I'll dig up some links of my threads later.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

7 hours ago, steelhead9 said:

 

 

 

You also managed to grab some very interesting points here! Very informative!  Did you get these three teeth from the same jaw?

 

I ask this question because this tooth is quite similar to the standard I might consider Siberian:

 

 

But you said that these teeth are completely mineralized, so this makes me think that many teeth that the Chinese sell at high prices claiming they are Siberian, may be teeth found in China itself!

[steelhead9]

31 minutes ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

You also managed to grab some very interesting points here! Very informative!  Did you get these three teeth from the same jaw?

 

I ask this question because this tooth is quite similar to the standard I might consider Siberian:

 

 

But you said that these teeth are completely mineralized, so this makes me think that many teeth that the Chinese sell at high prices claiming they are Siberian, may be teeth found in China itself!

No, all three teeth came from different jaws, but did come from the same seller. I think you may be quite right that these woolly rhino fossils come from China. My understanding has always been that rhino fossils are rather rare in Siberia. There are a few Hong Kong dealers who seem to have an endless supply. I believe this is why the price of a complete skull is so much lower than it was 10 years ago. Also, I have gotten quite a number of mammoth fossils from this dealer and every one has varying degrees of vivianite, which is another thing I have found to be quite rare on Siberian and Alaskan mammoth specimens. I will ask my seller, but I suspect he may be calling them Siberian to skirt mainland China's ban on export of vertebrate fossils.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

5 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

I have most of the important woolly rhino bones in my collections. I have just over a hundred bones (not counting duplicates). I have a few threads scattered about where I've posted a bunch of the bones. While I kinda plan to make what amounts to a big atlas of woolly rhino bones, getting all the photos done takes a lot of time. All that I've photographed can be found in the Collections section. I'll dig up some links of my threads later.

 

I have been following with great interest your excellent posts about Rhinoceroses my dear friend @LordTrilobite, so I think we would all be very grateful if you could post here some links to your posts.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

1 hour ago, steelhead9 said:

No, all three teeth came from different jaws, but did come from the same seller. I think you may be quite right that these woolly rhino fossils come from China. My understanding has always been that rhino fossils are rather rare in Siberia. There are a few Hong Kong dealers who seem to have an endless supply. I believe this is why the price of a complete skull is so much lower than it was 10 years ago. Also, I have gotten quite a number of mammoth fossils from this dealer and every one has varying degrees of vivianite, which is another thing I have found to be quite rare on Siberian and Alaskan mammoth specimens. I will ask my seller, but I suspect he may be calling them Siberian to skirt mainland China's ban on export of vertebrate fossils.

 

According to a reliable source, I have just received the information that these Coelodonta antiquitatis fossils, including the teeth, are being discovered in an outcrop in an irrigation canal that has suffered water erosion near the village of Xuetian, Wuchang County, southern Heilongjiang Province, China. And that in this locality is common to find white teeth with golden roots, but the difference is that there in China, these teeth are mineralized, unlike the Russian permafrost teeth that are not mineralized. So this seems to be the key to inexperienced buyers, ie, teeth that are mineralized and teeth that are not.

 

[LordTrilobite]

Here is my most recent Woolly Rhino thread where I show my skeleton. I probably need to make a thread sometime where I show off every bone individually.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

On 11/01/2019 at 2:22 PM, aplomado said:

Let us know what it looks like when it arrives!

 

As I promised, here I am to give my opinion, because today the tooth has arrived.

 

I did not find it necessary to take additional photos because the seller's photos are quite faithful to the tooth. I found it funny, it's a slight tooth, it's definitely not petrified.

 

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the morphology of the teeth of current rhinoceroses, so I would not know if this is not a tooth of a current rhino that underwent color modification through artificial processes. I know that the teeth of the North Sea Region are not petrified, I know that the teeth of Siberia are not petrified, but in these places there are pre-potentiating factors for excellent preservation. But I hoped that the Heilongjiang Province in China could provide petrified teeth. I confess that I am quite suspicious of all this.

 

 

@Crazyhen @aplomado

 

[Crazyhen]

I am inclined to say that it is a fossil rather than a tooth of modern rhino.  It is very likely that you could obtain a fossil rhino tooth more easily than a modern one since international trade of rhino including any parts and derivatives is strictly banned.

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

22 minutes ago, Crazyhen said:

I am inclined to say that it is a fossil rather than a tooth of modern rhino.  It is very likely that you could obtain a fossil rhino tooth more easily than a modern one since international trade of rhino including any parts and derivatives is strictly banned.

 

Thank you for your opinion, my dear friend, but do you have any fossils from Heilongjiang Province? Do you have any information if the fossils of Heilongjiang Province are petrified?

[Crazyhen]

There are definitely petrified fossils from Heilongjiang such as petrified wood.  For mammal fossils, it seems they are usually not petrified.  Look at some of the mammal fossils seized from Heilongqiang for comparison. I don't have any fossil from Heilongjiang.

 

 

And this is a rhino jaw bone from Heilongjiang:

 

 

 

[Seguidora-de-Isis]

31 minutes ago, Crazyhen said:

...For mammal fossils, it seems they are usually not petrified...

 

Super informative! Thank you my dear friend!

 

[Crazyhen]

20 minutes ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

Super informative! Thank you my dear friend!

 

The rhino tooth you got is pretty nice. I am sure it is worthy to be included in your fossil collection.

[aplomado]

Yeah, would bet fossil rhino teeth are more easily available in china than those of modern species....

 

If a tooth isn't petrified, it doesn't mean it is not a fossil.