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Is it impossible to get Giganotosaurus teeth?


Oxalaia

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As @Wightlight said, Giganotosaurus is only know from Argentinia and since selling fossils out of the country is illegal there is now way someone would get his hands on a real Giganotosaurus tooth legally.

 

So we're left with two possibilities:

 

1. Fake teeth or maybe Carcharodontosaurus teeth labeld as Giganotosaurus teeth for sale

2. Real teeth smuggled illegally out of the country

 

But I don't know if 2. ever actually happend.

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Well, fossils from Argentina are Illegal. So that makes it already a whole lot harder to obtain a Giganotosaurus tooth.

However, teeth from Argentina show up occasionally from old collections.

There are however 3 Carcharodontosaurids described from Argentina ( Tyrannotitan, Giganotosaurus and Mapusaurus). Giganotosaurus is from the Candeleros formation and the two others are from different places, but without detailed information it is probably impossible to determine the genus and species. It's often the case with teeth from this country that the information is absent or incorrect.

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Setting aside the legal/illegal aspect of it, these teeth will be very hard to ID.  When dinosaur fossils from Argentina were legally exported about 20 years ago, documentation of the location they were found was very poor so provenance is not very confident.  Also, multiple carchardontosaurids have been found within the area so without the conclusive provenance, assigning an ID is pure guesswork.

 

Like others have stated, many fabricated and misleading teeth from Carchardontosaurus of Morocco are sold in order to increase sales.

 

Likelihood of obtaining an authentic one that you are 100% confident in is close to impossible.

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2 minutes ago, gayming said:

Do you know btw how the Giganotosaurus got extict, couldn´t compete?

It's hard to tell why a specific species went extinct. Some are well-known (meteorite impact and climate change at the end Cretaceous, Ice ages...), but Giganotosaurus is Cenomanian in age (Early late Cretaceous). I don't know if it's the case here, but at the end of the Cenomanian there was an extinction event, the Cenomanian-Turonian boundary event (or other names, like Bonarelli event like it's normally called in Europe) that was caused by an anoxic event, that likely killed the Spinosauridae, Ichthyosauria and various others. Most are marine or semi-aquatic animals however. Maybe it has something to do with it, but I don't think there is known enough about Giganotosaurus to assume this is the cause of it's extinction.

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They usually go extinct because the environment changes, e.g. it's drier, or wetter, or the food (herbivores they ate) move to a different region, etc.  Other possible reasons for extinction could be disease, a new competitor invading their region, things like that.  I don't think we know in the case of Giganotosaurus, but I have a feeling it is because of a change in the environment. As the above comments mention there isn't much known about it and I guess we will never know haha.

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Giganotosaurus is strictly related to Tyrannotitan, Mapusaurus and Carcharodontosaurus, for this reason they are all members of the family Carcharodontosauridae. Of those I have already mentioned, Giganotosaurus and Mapusaurus were placed in a subfamily called Giganotosaurinae by the scientists Coria and Currie in the year 2006, and as new discoveries are made this subfamily can be enlarged.

 

According to the work of Brusatte and Sereno in the year 2007, this is a tooth of Carcharodontosaurus saharicus:

 

image.png.8c6acb7cba395a0a00a754c810bc6c79.png

 

And this is the tooth of Giganotosaurus:

 

image.png.03a14749887abda4504af0b8a3a9cb96.png

 

So without a little experience it really is easy to confuse both teeth.

 

Below is a picture of the Formation Candeleros (Upper Cretaceous - Cenomanian), the so-called desolate lands, Patagonia, Neuquén Province, in Argentina, where the fossil remains of Giganotosaurus can be found:

 

image.png.f6ba1ec122df005accca43794987a3f8.png

 

Here in Argentina fossil remains of Giganotosaurus are very rare and particularly I do not think there are many out there for sale.

 

Here in Argentina fossil remains of Giganotosaurus are very rare and particularly I do not think there are many out there for sale in other coutryes. In our country, by law, all the fossil remains discovered in our territory form an integral part of the Cultural Patrimony of the Nation. According to Law 25743/03 of "Protection of Archaeological and Paleontological Heritage", the trade in fossils will result from 2 months to 2 years in prison.

 

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6 hours ago, gigantoraptor said:

Well, fossils from Argentina are Illegal. So that makes it already a whole lot harder to obtain a Giganotosaurus tooth.

However, teeth from Argentina show up occasionally from old collections.

There are however 3 Carcharodontosaurids described from Argentina ( Tyrannotitan, Giganotosaurus and Mapusaurus). Giganotosaurus is from the Candeleros formation and the two others are from different places, but without detailed information it is probably impossible to determine the genus and species. It's often the case with teeth from this country that the information is absent or incorrect.

 

I own an Argentine carcharodontosaurid which I got in a trade from an old collection last year where the tooth was acquired over 20 years ago which makes it very much legal. My question is, which species in your opinion would you assign it to or is that an impossible question? Here are a couple of images anyway. 

37451BAB-94E4-4C68-B3F5-5B63500F07B3.jpeg

2CC0E19C-2F01-4B87-962D-69F824B5F057.jpeg

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I've always thought of larger predators going extinct because of smaller, quicker competition, certainly there were more of the little ones :blink:

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On The Hunt For The Trophy Otodus!

 

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32 minutes ago, paulyb135 said:

 

I own an Argentine carcharodontosaurid which I got in a trade from an old collection last year where the tooth was acquired over 20 years ago which makes it very much legal. My question is, which species in your opinion would you assign it to or is that an impossible question? Here are a couple of images anyway. 

 

With just these pictures I can't tell what species it could be. Do you know the location,  formation or province?

 

Tyrannotitan chubutensis is from the Cerro Barcino formation.

Mapusaurus roseae is from the Huincul formation and Giganotosaurus carolinii is from the Candeleros formation. If this isn't an Abelisaurid tooth,  it's a Carcharodontosaurid. I think it’s the last but without location (or formation,  since at some places they are on top of each other) it's an impossible question. 

 

I have to say that's the best Argentinan tooth I've ever seen, congrats. 

 

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34 minutes ago, FossilsAnonymous said:

I've always thought of larger predators going extinct because of smaller, quicker competition, certainly there were more of the little ones :blink:

Predators are usually very adapted to their particular niche, because competition hurts them both. So big predators (generally) go after larger or more armored prey, while smaller predators stick to smaller or softer targets, and since their choice of prey doesn't overlap they can ignore each other and prevent spending energy on fighting. Environmental changes are trickier to adapt to since they usually affect the herbivores first since plants can be quite sensitive to changes. So if a predator is specialized in hunting a particular kind of herbivore which then either migrates or dies out due to the environmental changes (or getting out-competed by other herbivores), the predator will die out as well.

 

Of course sometimes a new predator moves in and out-competes the native ones but they are usually of a similar or greater size.  

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2 minutes ago, Wightlight said:

Predators are usually very adapted to their particular niche, because competition hurts them both. So big predators (generally) go after larger or more armored prey, while smaller predators stick to smaller or softer targets, and since their choice of prey doesn't overlap they can ignore each other and prevent spending energy on fighting. Environmental changes are trickier to adapt to since they usually affect the herbivores first since plants can be quite sensitive to changes. So if a predator is specialized in hunting a particular kind of herbivore which then either migrates or dies out due to the environmental changes (or getting out-competed by other herbivores), the predator will die out as well.

 

Of course sometimes a new predator moves in and out-competes the native ones but they are usually of a similar or greater size.  

Thank you... That explains it a whole lot better.

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On The Hunt For The Trophy Otodus!

 

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6 minutes ago, gigantoraptor said:

With just these pictures I can't tell what species it could be. Do you know the location,  formation or province?

 

Tyrannotitan chubutensis is from the Cerro Barcino formation.

Mapusaurus roseae is from the Huincul formation and Giganotosaurus carolinii is from the Candeleros formation. If this isn't an Abelisaurid tooth,  it's a Carcharodontosaurid. I think it’s the last but without location (or formation,  since at some places they are on top of each other) it's an impossible question. 

 

I have to say that's the best Argentinan tooth I've ever seen, congrats. 

 

 

Unfortunately the location is a bit of a mish mash. This was originally posted on the extinctions website years and years ago and can still be seen in the archive section however I’m led to believe the location that is on there isn’t necessarily correct which is a pity. I guess I’ll never know but if it is giganotosaurus that that would be something special! 

 

It is maybe my favourite tooth. Here’s a couple more images of it. 

36E71171-69C1-471E-BB95-3624C6437948.png

98D02254-3573-406A-B8FC-F4F20FD61608.jpeg

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22 minutes ago, paulyb135 said:

 

Unfortunately the location is a bit of a mish mash....

 

The question here in South America is quite simple to be understood. In the eyes of a salesman, a large Argentine tooth is more valuable when it is labeled Giganotosaurus. Teeth of great theropods leave the Uruguayan whole time and are labeled as from Argentina and are automatically called Giganotosaurus. As I said, in the Candeleros formation, in Argentina, Giganotosaurus teeth are extremely rare. In Uruguay the laws are confusing and the fossils there are exported with relative frequency. So I would not be surprised at all if you have a tooth of a Uruguayan theropod in your hands. Which is much more likely. :dinothumb:

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I can literally picture our dear friend @Seguidora-de-Isis roaming the streets of some Argentinian city at night. Constantly checking his back to make sure no one is following :ninja:

And all of a sudden in some dark corner....

 

"Got some rare things on sale, stranger."

Merchant_re4.jpg.dc1267e765987863fe8847256affc545.jpg

 

:ighappy:

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7 hours ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

The question here in South America is quite simple to be understood. In the eyes of a salesman, a large Argentine tooth is more valuable when it is labeled Giganotosaurus. Teeth of great theropods leave the Uruguayan whole time and are labeled as from Argentina and are automatically called Giganotosaurus. As I said, in the Candeleros formation, in Argentina, Giganotosaurus teeth are extremely rare. In Uruguay the laws are confusing and the fossils there are exported with relative frequency. So I would not be surprised at all if you have a tooth of a Uruguayan theropod in your hands. Which is much more likely. :dinothumb:

 

Well originally the tooth was sold as carnotaurus but that isn’t the case. I am pretty confident the tooth is from Argentina based on who the original seller was who sold it to the collector before I got my hands on it :dinothumb:

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1 hour ago, Abstraktum said:

I can literally picture our dear friend @Seguidora-de-Isis roaming the streets of some Argentinian city at night. Constantly checking his back to make sure no one is following :ninja:

And all of a sudden in some dark corner....

 

"Got some rare things on sale, stranger."

 

 

 

Your drawing caught me off guard!

 

Hahahahaha.  :ighappy:

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38 minutes ago, paulyb135 said:

 

Well originally the tooth was sold as carnotaurus but that isn’t the case. I am pretty confident the tooth is from Argentina based on who the original seller was who sold it to the collector before I got my hands on it :dinothumb:

 

Could you do me a favor? Can you take a photo of the basal cross section of your tooth? Please, the photo should be with a straightest possible angle.

 

An angle similar to this:

 

image.png.cfc9c46e4248ef635322ac1ce5766567.png

 

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10 minutes ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said:

 

Could you do me a favor? Can you take a photo of the basal cross section of your tooth? Please, the photo should be with a straightest possible angle.

 

An angle similar to this:

 

image.png.cfc9c46e4248ef635322ac1ce5766567.png

 

 

Sure! Hopefully one of these images is suitable 

DC32234D-2C0D-4D8B-8101-28262BFE0AB6.jpeg

3FFECE0D-05F4-4418-A0C0-D6A6EF164C72.jpeg

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Just to chip in to this discussion, I believe this tooth and other teeth sold around the same time from this source were from Argentina however only just yesterday the same source was selling an Ichthyosaur tooth from Russia advertised as a Pliosaur. Pliosaurs and Ichthyosaurs are not the same thing (however the location may have been accurate but I am not too sure). This may have been an isolated case of misidentification but that is highly unlikely. As we all know sellers are not always accurate with their identification of teeth and I am not saying that this tooth is not a genuine Argentine tooth but just be careful when someone identifies it as such and when attempting to assign a tooth to a particular species. To even be anywhere close to a more accurate identification, we would need to compare this tooth to a sample of many other types of teeth from Argentina and from a variety of sources and currently we can't do that. It is also made more difficult because of the strict law in place etc. I have to admit though this tooth is the best that we (the users on the forum) have in terms of using this tooth as a reference point in comparing it to other teeth. It's rather unfortunate that not many of the users on this forum have teeth from this location so we can't compare this tooth with others. Unfortunately this tooth is an indeterminate theropod tooth but it would be cool if one day it could be identified to something.

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59 minutes ago, paulyb135 said:

 

Sure! Hopefully one of these images is suitable

 

Thanks for the pictures! A minor resemblance to Carcharodontosauridae Undetermined, but unfortunately it still does not fit very well with any of them: 

 

image.png.c0b2a0c66841a0c226756241ef9c4234.png

 

But even with this slight resemblance of the basal cross section, I do not believe your tooth is from a Carcharodontosauridae Undetermined. The shape of the tooth does not match and the serrations do not match either:

 

image.png.7152931f4cc8ebbe60566945f61584fb.png

 

And with this format we can exclude other Carcharodontosaurids, such as Mapusaurus and Tyrannotitan...

 

The Carnotaurus has a relatively good fit here?

 

image.png.19893dbf2d4e8f47bb8e849b91773477.png

 

 

Maybe! But it's a good start!

 

And maybe that's why this tooth came to you labeled as a Carnotaurus tooth.  ;)

 

:dinothumb:

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