Bison Bonanza part 2

[Monica]

AMAZING finds, Kim!!!!!!!!!!  

 

Those articulated leg bones are an especially sweet find!!!

 

VFOTM candidate for sure!!!!!!!!!! 

[Ptychodus04]

8 hours ago, KimTexan said:

Thank you very much Kris for that insight. I have thought it was Pleistocene, but I didn't trust my inexperience to make the official call.

 

A "nine map"? Would that be site map with auto-correct?  I am taking pics of almost every bone as I find it and listing what was found together. I have a lot more pics I have not posted for my documentation. So I have the association of bones with the others. It is easy to get excited and forget about taking pics though occasionally. I forgot to take a pic of the rib in situ.  I take pics of the group found what day together so that I know what was found when. I have not taken pics of all the stray, non in situ bones as they lay when found. Some I have.

I hate autocorrect! Yes, that should have been site map. The only thing you get from a site map is a look at all of the associations in one place. This may not even be possible due to the fact you are having to tunnel the bones out.

 

Speaking of that, be extremely careful doing this as it is not uncommon for the overburden to collapse. 

[fossilus]

great thread!  That loose phalanx is from  horse, so it wouldn't go with your bison.

[Al Tahan]

Pleistocene!! That’s old!! Super cool 

[dalmayshun]

this is "short story" worthy. We all continue to wait for the next episode. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Lovely photos and report, Kim. 

[KimTexan]

3 hours ago, fossilus said:

great thread!  That loose phalanx is from  horse, so it wouldn't go with your bison.

Thank you very much. The more I looked at it the more I thought it didn’t look like it belonged to the bison, but I haven't pulled out the bison bones yet to compare.

[Kato]

1 minute ago, KimTexan said:

Thank you very much. The more I looked at it the more I thought it didn’t look like it belonged to the bison, but I haven't pulled out the bison bones yet to compare.

Were they at the same level in the bank? If yes, makes one wonder what was happening at the time. 

[KimTexan]

No the last 2 bones were alluvial. They had washed out from somewhere and were lose in the creek.

[KimTexan]

4 hours ago, dalmayshun said:

this is "short story" worthy. We all continue to wait for the next episode. 

I think the collecting portion at that site is basically done. Whatever is left is too far back in the bank to extract at this time. It may take a couple years or more to erode the bank 3 feet. 

The only major bones I don’t have are 1 tibia and metatarsal from the left rear leg I think it is. I don’t have all the small foot and ankle bones. I am pretty sure those washed out into the creek. I don’t have most of the ribs and a number of vertebrae.

 

This is the post from last June when I first found it. It looks like pretty much all of one leg fell out and a good portion of a second leg, because I found the pelvis, sacrum, humerus, radius, ulna and metacarpal fallen from the bank and some other bones.

 

 

[KimTexan]

We may have a precipitating cause of death. Definitely bite marks. I found large teeth impressions. 2 cm long. Kind of large. Tooth had to be bigger than 2 cm though.

 

[Benjaminpb]

I’d love to know where your’re hunting!

this is an amazing find! I go to the NSR a few times a year and I’ve never found anything even close to that. I’ve found a few verts here and there but that’s about it. I’m going next weekend. Maybe I’ll have better luck this time.

[5 Humper]

Hi Kim.  The species IDs on the bones from other animals you found, photoed above, are:  1) White-tailed deer tibia (doesn't look big enough to be from a muley).  2) Extinct horse proximal phalanx from presumably latest Pleistocene Equus.  This may give us another avenue at ID of your bison.  If the horse proximal phalanx is from the same stratum as your bison, then having your bison be assigned to late Pleistocene by association with other known extinct megafauna, may get us closer to a B. antiquus ID.  Do you know or suspect that the horse phalanx may be from same layer as your bison?  With multiple species present in a small area there, you might just have yourself a deposit containing many more fossils...keep at it!

[dalmayshun]

I say also, keep at it. When a new home was going up in my area, the company putting in a new canal wall dug out a 15 foot high pile of dirt. Out of it, we pulled deer antler, mammoth tooth, camel bones, sloth bones, turtle shell ( almost obviously) and other large unidentified bones. The dredger must have dug into an area where bones collected ....it is wonderful when you find large mammel bones together...so I too, say, keep digging. I realize you said you had gone as far back in the bank as possible, but perhaps looking again closely up and down river would yield more, or perhaps on the opposite bank. When I was on the famous 10 mile Creek in Florida, the bank on the opposite side of the creek, yielded fossils that had been overlooked. ( incidentally, the owner of the property where I was looking, was not the local sheriff, who apparently owns another section and who vigorously  enforces his no tresspass signs, which is certainly his right. ) The property where I was is owned by a large company, and one of its field managers and I went out together. 

[KimTexan]

I just realized that I never posted any of the washed up bones from Monday. Oops. I got carried away with other stuff.

 

Here are the feet bones. Sesamoid and phalanx bones I think these are called. I often get the back and front (hands and feet in humans) confused  I have not looked at how many there are supposed to be, but I think they are all there. The little piece on the bottom right I believe is a fragment of a tendon. I found it next to these so it went in the bag with them. Later in excavation I came across more tendon fragments next to the scapula. I imagine this goes with those pieces.

 

These are the bones found at the distal (bottom) end of tibia. In humans you have the ankle and foot together, but with bovines and other 4 legged animals they have something like the ankle then a long metacarpal and metatarsal followed by the feet bones. So they kind of have an extra joint. These would be the extra joint.

 

These are the talus and tarsal bones. I have not counted these and compare to see if they’re all there. Some are quite little and could easily drop in the dirt and I wouldn’t have noticed. I’ll post more pics in a bit.

[fossilus]

It's great that you have these photos of these small foot and ankle bones. Thanks!

 

 

[KimTexan]

These are all the leg bones found articulated. All but the femur was extracted 1/21. Left to right the femur, tibia, metatarsal. Top the talus and tarsal bones as above and the sesamoid and phalanx bones below. 

 

A bad attempt at something like articulation. The part of the pelvic bone on top left.

[KimTexan]

I also found these bones and fragments. That rib is the only intact rib I recovered. I think the vert is a lumbar one. There are a  lower leg and one foot bones. There are a few mystery pieces there. The 2 on top right under the rib and the brown one under them. The others I think I can figure out.

 

I have posted these in a mystery bison bone thread, but last I looked I didn’t have an answer.

This is one mystery bone from different angles.

 

This is a second one from different and less. Maybe the periosteum is just all worn off. 

 

 

Some more fragments I don’t know where they belong.

 

These are the 2 under the rib on top right.

[KimTexan]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:07 AM, 5 Humper said:

Hi Kim.  The species IDs on the bones from other animals you found, photoed above, are:  1) White-tailed deer tibia (doesn't look big enough to be from a muley).  2) Extinct horse proximal phalanx from presumably latest Pleistocene Equus.  This may give us another avenue at ID of your bison.  If the horse proximal phalanx is from the same stratum as your bison, then having your bison be assigned to late Pleistocene by association with other known extinct megafauna, may get us closer to a B. antiquus ID.  Do you know or suspect that the horse phalanx may be from same layer as your bison?  With multiple species present in a small area there, you might just have yourself a deposit containing many more fossils...keep at it!

I just now saw this. Wow! I’m impressed at your vertebrate knowledge. I’m totally winging whatever knowledge I have. I learned some skeletal anatomy as a kid from my dad who was an X ray tech. I started taking an A&P class in college. But I was already taking level 300 and 400 college science classes.  It was a class for nursing students and so easy, so I dropped it.

That tibia is the one bone out of everything that seems to be a bit mineralized. That and the front part of the mandible that I found. All others seem like just bone. There may be sections of bone here and there that are a bit harder, but none are like rock.

 

Extinct horse. Very cool. Here I was thinking relatively modern. What characistic or quality distinguishes it from a modern  variety? If that isn’t too difficult to explain. I’m trying to learn. Pleistocene stuff is totally new to me. I’ve been walking past the bones for years thinking they were modern. So I’m truly thankful someone so much more knowledgeable than I has shown up. I’m eager to learn. 

 

The horse bone was laying on a bank about the level where my bison bones were, but around the corner from it. It did not look in situ. It looked like it had washed there. Odd thing though, no other rocks or float material were around it. It was just sit’n pretty all by itself there on the bank. It was behind part of the bank that was jutting out into the creek. The bank hadn’t eroded away there because a large tree with deep running roots was established there. So bone was protected from the direct stream flow and would have experienced little current. So it could have been from the immediate area. It is far above the creek water, but would experience water flow in flood conditions.

 

I found a couple bones downstream yesterday. One is a fragment that I doubt can be ID’d the other is also a fragment, but I think the other it’s the distal end of a humerus, but not sure what animal. The other side of the joint (epicondyles?) are broken off. 

[5 Humper]

Let me just back up a smidgen on the horse phalanx...It's definitely horse.  But whether it's from the extinct N. American Equus or from the last few hundred years of post-European contact (Eurasian horse), I can't tell for sure from just pix.   If it is heavy and hard as a rock, and known to have eroded from 5 feet deep in a bank, then yeah...Pleistocene extinct N. American horse.  The other long bone is humerus of either horse, extinct horse, bison, or extinct bison, it's eroded and can't quite conclusively tell.  

 

That rounded mystery bone in your above photos about the size of the palm of your hand with flaring edges is from the sternum...it's one of about 6 sternabrae bones.  The ribs extend from the thoracic vertebrae and curve all the way down to meet at the sternum.  The other elongated mystery bone looks like a thyrohyoid or ceratohyoid, best I can tell...Beautiful skeleton!!!  

[KimTexan]

51 minutes ago, 5 Humper said:

Let me just back up a smidgen on the horse phalanx...It's definitely horse.  But whether it's from the extinct N. American Equus or from the last few hundred years of post-European contact (Eurasian horse), I can't tell for sure from just pix.   If it is heavy and hard as a rock, and known to have eroded from 5 feet deep in a bank, then yeah...Pleistocene extinct N. American horse.  The other long bone is humerus of either horse, extinct horse, bison, or extinct bison, it's eroded and can't quite conclusively tell.  

The thing is, to my knowledge it is kind of rare to find fully mineralized Pleistocene bones in this area. They do occur, but rarely. My knowledge is limited. Other parts of the state they are more common to find mineralized. South and west in particular.

 

A guy I know found these bison bones SW of Brownwood, TX that were fully mineralized. He sent me pics to ID which bones they were and possibly what animal they were in December. They look a lot bigger than mine. My guess is B. latifrons femur and humerus. 

 

 

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That rounded mystery bone in your above photos about the size of the palm of your hand with flaring edges is from the sternum...it's one of about 6 sternabrae bones.  The ribs extend from the thoracic vertebrae and curve all the way down to meet at the sterum.

The other elongated mystery bone looks like a thyrohyoid or ceratohyoid, best I can tell...Beautiful skeleton!!!  

That would make sense. They were all found around the scapula. So at least they are in the correct area of the body for being those pieces. That also explains why periosteum is not present on the long slender one, I’m learning. I had never even heard of thyrohyoid or ceratohyoid before I had to go look them up.  They look oscfied like bone. I didn’t know ligaments could look that way. I’m learning!! Yay!

I took histology, but I never recall looking at ligament tissue. When on the dino dig I’d find tendons. So when I found tendons with the bison at least I knew what they were. I have never found an animal ligament before. Cool!

Thank you so much Ryan! You’re teaching me a lot and I truly appreciate that.

 

Any idea on these? I suppose they could be pieces of vertebral processes, but they don’t look like any I have already.  

the top of the one on the right has the texture you see on the end of neural processes of thoracic vertebrae, but the shape is very different. Also the long part has contoures which the processes don’t have.

[5 Humper]

That vertebral/processy/rib-ish looking thingy (excuse the technical jargon), I believe, may be a stylohyoid....You might have a trifecta of the "hyoids."

 

The second long bone your friend found, not the femur, is a bison radius.  It may well be B. latifrons.  But I suspect that it is B. antiquus.  Keep in mind that B. antiquus is a HUGE bison, albeit not quite as large, body size-wise, as B. latifrons.  But B. antiquus is the second largest bison ever to roam North America. There were 5 (sometimes debated) species, I think.  In order of size, large to small:  B. latifrons, antiquus, priscus, occidentalis, and bison (only one still alive).  If your bison is B.bison, then a B. antiquus bone would look significantly larger in comparison to your bison counterpart bones.  For comparison--I have femur and radius to a single adult B. antiquus.  Femur measures 22 inches long.  Radius measures 16.5 inches long.  See how that stacks up to your friends' femur and radius lengths.      

[KimTexan]

1 hour ago, 5 Humper said:

That vertebral/processy/rib-ish looking thingy (excuse the technical jargon), I believe, may be a stylohyoid....You might have a trifecta of the "hyoids."

I kind of think that is it. They were found with collapsed material that included all but the rib and the previously discussed pieces. The stuff found together is in the pic below. There was a lumbar vert, some pieces that look a bit like vertebral precess fragments, two bones to the other lower rear leg and a couple pieces that I suspect are pelvic in nature or at least in that area of the bison. I did find the sacrum and pelvis in that area of the bank back in June.

 

Also, if the other 2 mystery neck pieces didn’t have periosteum present and were ligaments why would this one have such solid periosteum? I had to go look stylohyoid up. In humans it appears to be a muscle. Is it a ligament or bone rather than a muscle in bovids? I’m completely ignorant of the anatomy of 4 legged creatures. I’m trying to learn as I go. I sincerely appreciate your help in educating me.

 

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The second long bone your friend found, not the femur, is a bison radius.  It may well be B. latifrons.  But I suspect that it is B. antiquus.  Keep in mind that B. antiquus is a HUGE bison, albeit not quite as large, body size-wise, as B. latifrons.  But B. antiquus is the second largest bison ever to roam North America. There were 5 (sometimes debated) species, I think.  In order of size, large to small:  B. latifrons, antiquus, priscus, occidentalis, and bison (only one still alive).  If your bison is B.bison, then a B. antiquus bone would look significantly larger in comparison to your bison counterpart bones.  For comparison--I have femur and radius to a single adult B. antiquus.  Femur measures 22 inches long.  Radius measures 16.5 inches long.  See how that stacks up to your friends' femur and radius lengths.      

I went back and read the dialogue with the guy about it. I never got measurements from him. He was traveling when he sent pics to me and couldn’t measure or take other pics. I asked for a pic of the joint on the other bone, because I couldn’t tell from what I saw. I think we both forgot about it. I don’t hear from him often unless he has a question usually.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

If I restate any advice already given, please forgive me for not having time to read through all the threads.  You have done a good job of photo documenting and meticulously digging up this cool specimen. 

 

Have you contacted Tom Vance yet at Navarro College?  He's the go-to Pleistocene guy for North Texas, and has written multiple Occasional Papers for the DPS.  Since finds like this can be hard to assign to Pleistocene vs. Holocene for hobbyists viewing photos online, I'd put more credibility on Vance's opinion than my own.  Your photos of burial context would be as insightful to him as cleaned specimen photos. 

 

Best case, perhaps you could meet him at the school, bringing along some bones including those you feel are most and least mineralized.  A visit could perhaps include you handling other Pleistocene bones from North Texas, as hands-on experience tends to fast track our ability to assess age ourselves, minus expensive lab testing.  

 

When I've stumbled upon bones of questionable age in the field in North Texas, here are some factors that tilt the scale toward Pleistocene for me:

 

1.  Geo map - Is the drainage mapped as Terrace Deposits or Quaternary alluvium?  Take this factor with a grain of salt due to limitations of mapping scale.

 

2.  Burial context - I gain confidence of age when the remains are deposited directly on top of the Cretaceous bedrock, on the bottom of the sediment column.

 

3.  Sedimentology - I gain confidence of age when the remains are found in a Pleistocene rework layer, often a different color and character than the overlying topsoil.

 

4.  Condition - The Pleistocene bones I've found in North Texas have tended to be partial and/or in very fragile condition, often "blown in place".  The best preserved stuff I've seen came from Upper Trinity gravel pits from classic sites around Seagoville. 

 

5.  Association/articulation - Most Pleistocene finds tend to be isolated bones and teeth.  I don't think my buddies and I have found anything Pleistocene AND articulated in NTX.  I realize this is just a subset of what can be encountered in the field, but it is still worth noting.  Vance led excavation of much of an articulated mammoth in NTX, so these scenarios do in fact occur.  They are just rare.

 

With my own finds, especially bovid remains, I tend to start from a position of Holocene until objective examination of evidence suggests otherwise.  I'm in the subfossil camp on this find due to good condition and degree of articulation.  But I'm open minded regarding further examination by others.  

 

[KimTexan]

13 hours ago, Uncle Siphuncle said:

If I restate any advice already given, please forgive me for not having time to read through all the threads.  You have done a good job of photo documenting and meticulously digging up this cool specimen. 

Thank you Dan. I truly appreciate your input. I am a biologist and scientist among other things. I am not a paleontologist, but the biology and science background help a lot along with some official dino dig experience towards the documenting and recording various aspects of it.

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Have you contacted Tom Vance yet at Navarro College?  He's the go-to Pleistocene guy for North Texas, and has written multiple Occasional Papers for the DPS.  Since finds like this can be hard to assign to Pleistocene vs. Holocene for hobbyists viewing photos online, I'd put more credibility on Vance's opinion than my own.  Your photos of burial context would be as insightful to him as cleaned specimen photos. 

I have not contacted him or anyone else. I can't say that I know how uncommon or common finding such a thing is, but I gather it is not too common. Kind of the stupid thing is that when I initially found it I described it to 2 of the DPS paleontologist and invited them to come have a look. I shared pictures of the bones recovered at that time in June 2018, one of which was the metacarple, which I later realized can be used to distinguish between a bison and a cow. One of the men I emailed is actually pictured and referenced in Finsley's book "Cow & Buffalo Bos & Bison" So you would have thought he would have picked up on it being a bison and showed more interest. He replied to my email, but wasn't interested in looking at it. If I had known it was bison from that point on I am pretty sure we would have also preserved both horns.

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Best case, perhaps you could meet him at the school, bringing along some bones including those you feel are most and least mineralized.  A visit could perhaps include you handling other Pleistocene bones from North Texas, as hands-on experience tends to fast track our ability to assess age ourselves, minus expensive lab testing.  

I have not met him or been to the college, but I have handled a number of Pleistocene bones from North Texas that were in a museum. So I know the feel and look of some of what is found in North Central Texas.

I do have the Occasional Paper

 

 

 

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When I've stumbled upon bones of questionable age in the field in North Texas, here are some factors that tilt the scale toward Pleistocene for me:

 

1.  Geo map - Is the drainage mapped as Terrace Deposits or Quaternary alluvium?  Take this factor with a grain of salt due to limitations of mapping scale.

The closest non-cretaceous formation is marked Pleistocene to Holocene Terrace Deposit. It is about 2 kilometers away from where I found this. Kris @Ptychodus04 said it was Pleistocene. 

This pic below is not my dig site, but it is a couple hundred yards from where it was. The bison was is very shady and hard to get well lit pics of the layers. This is a  good representative of the layers present with the bison. In short the thick gray layer above the concretions is the layer the bison was found in. Although there wasn't the large chunky redeposited stuff below the bison. The big concretions on the lower left is stuck in the Eagle Ford gray shale. I am not sure about the other concretion. It isn't level so it has to be redeposited. The bank has collapsed on top of the Eagle Ford and it looks like some freshly redeposited larger light colored stuff. Then there is a thin layer of redeposited stuff. Then above that is the gray layer that looks maybe a foot or so thick.  The bison was in the foot or so thick gray layer, which is fairly sandy actually despite the looks. Above that is a thicker layer of small light colored, not dense, but dispersed redeposited material.  The bison was below that.

 

 

The Eagle Ford layers are kind of blurred in a few places. This is upstream from my bison a couple hundred yards. It is hard to tell, but there are concretions just below the strong light colored band on the right behind some roots and scrub brush. I think the brown layer just above that is the layer the bison was in, but this is higher up in the bank. The Eagle Ford rises and fall or thins and thickens in numerous places. There is a fair amount of what I guess you'd call unconformity. The gray shale is Eagle Ford, covered by collapsed bank dirt.

I would like to know your best assessment based on the pics. It is hard to say from a pic though.

 

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2.  Burial context - I gain confidence of age when the remains are deposited directly on top of the Cretaceous bedrock, on the bottom of the sediment column.

The bison was within about 2 feet of the Eagle Ford shale I think. It is hard to tell because the bank has collapsed there and built up a pile obscuring the lower layers of the bank there.

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3.  Sedimentology - I gain confidence of age when the remains are found in a Pleistocene rework layer, often a different color and character than the overlying topsoil.

 

4.  Condition - The Pleistocene bones I've found in North Texas have tended to be partial and/or in very fragile condition, often "blown in place".  The best preserved stuff I've seen came from Upper Trinity gravel pits from classic sites around Seagoville. 

 

5.  Association/articulation - Most Pleistocene finds tend to be isolated bones and teeth.  I don't think my buddies and I have found anything Pleistocene AND articulated in NTX.  I realize this is just a subset of what can be encountered in the field, but it is still worth noting.  Vance led excavation of much of an articulated mammoth in NTX, so these scenarios do in fact occur.  They are just rare.

How much geologic features such as springs or aquifers change over the eons, but there is a spring putting out cool water within 10-15 feet of the bison. My theory was that there may have been a bog or swampy area there and the bison got stuck in it and couldn't get out. Hum, that gets the wheels turning of other springs I know of in the area with Pleistocene deposits in the immediate area. Those might be worth a check. That said, if such was the case then You would think you'd see other remains there too possibly.

I don't know if you saw the thread on the predation marks, but one femur looks like the patella may have been ripped off and a chunk of condyle is missing with what appear to be teeth imprints left in the bone. Harry Pristis thinks it was a coyote. Others think wolf of some kind. I can't say. But there is not another bite mark anywhere. So it would seem it was injured and then maybe got stuck in the mud is a likely hypothesis. Otherwise the bones would not be so articulated.

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With my own finds, especially bovid remains, I tend to start from a position of Holocene until objective examination of evidence suggests otherwise.  I'm in the subfossil camp on this find due to good condition and degree of articulation.  But I'm open minded regarding further examination by others.  

I am fine if someone wishes to come look at the site, but like I have said previously I am not sure what the laws are regarding collection under this specific instance are. So, I don't wish anyone to be entangled in some messy dispute over ownership.