Kittenmittens Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Got this fish from a popular fossil site for their new years sale. The longer I look at it the more red flags I am seeing. It was listed as unidentified, upper cretaceous-lower Turonian stage, Asfla Goulmima Morocco. All my other fish are either Green River or from Lebanon so I don't have anything to compare it to. First flag the entire top of the fish looks carved from the matrix. Second the matrix is riddled with bubbles on all sides and the back. Last once I borrowed a black light the matrix is dotted fluorescence throughout as well as a border around the fish. Am I just ignorant to how these are prepped or is my gut right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittenmittens Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittenmittens Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Looks like it has been "doctored" to me also. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Can we get a picture of the whole fish? Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittenmittens Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said: Can we get a picture of the whole fish? Here are a couple of the pictures from the site. Thanks for the replies so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Is it possible that this fish was placed into a nicer looking block of matrix to enhance its looks? The 3D look of the actual fossil reminds me of those common fishes that were once available from Brazil. One of my wife's co-workers picker one up for her years ago in a market in Brazil. The UV lighting does seem suspicious. Fish from Morocco are far from my specialty but your red flags to seem to have merit. Nice looking fish that I hope you got for a reasonable price. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittenmittens Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, digit said: Is it possible that this fish was placed into a nicer looking block of matrix to enhance its looks? The 3D look of the actual fossil reminds me of those common fishes that were once available from Brazil. Remount is sounding like it might be going down the right track. The fish has a repaired crack towards the tail(was mention on the listing) but I cant find a trace of a crack in the matrix. The anal fin has a small section that looks almost like its lifting a bit from the matrix. That fin has the most "glow" around it, maybe glue? If it was a remount why would the top of the fish not look embedded in the matrix instead of carved out of it? Thanks for all the quick replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead9 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Definitely a Brazilian fish, likely vinctifer, with a poor quality head, but decent body. Clearly remounted or at least resurfaced as the matrix does not at all resemble Santana matrix. A photo of the backside of the piece should clarify this. 1 Still Life Fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Not a Vinctifer, however - wrong type of scales. More likely is Rhacolepis. But I agree Brazil is likely origin. Remounting them seems to be more of a thing, these days. LINK On some of these, you can see fins painted on. And the 2nd photo shows a specimen that looks like the concretion was carved down. Probably just for aesthetics, but could be a technique for remounting. 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittenmittens Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 48 minutes ago, steelhead9 said: Definitely a Brazilian fish, likely vinctifer, with a poor quality head, but decent body. Clearly remounted or at least resurfaced as the matrix does not at all resemble Santana matrix. A photo of the backside of the piece should clarify this. The second post has a picture of the back of the matrix. The matrix almost seems like plaster with all the air bubbles and how it lights up under blacklight. This site gets a ton of morracan fossils and nothing from Brazil so I am not sure about it being from Brazil. The site does say in it's listing it's similar to Brazilian specimens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead9 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Kittenmittens said: The second post has a picture of the back of the matrix. The matrix almost seems like plaster with all the air bubbles and how it lights up under blacklight. This site gets a ton of morracan fossils and nothing from Brazil so I am not sure about it being from Brazil. The site does say in it's listing it's similar to Brazilian specimens. After a bit of research, I retract what I said about this likely being a Brazilian vinctifer. I do believe it to be from Morocco. The Moroccan fish I have seen do have a very hard, light colored matrix, but the matrix on this just looks weird. On the side view photo it appears the matrix is two slabs bonded together. Maybe original matrix backed with cement for strength? Still Life Fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittenmittens Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 10 hours ago, steelhead9 said: On the side view photo it appears the matrix is two slabs bonded together. Maybe original matrix backed with cement for strength? The site I bought the fish from has a similar one listed. In its description it actually says The back of the rock has been backed for stabilization to allow for a wall hanger to be installed. So I believe you are right about concrete back because the matrixes look identical. Any ideas of why the fish has a uv reactive border around it though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead9 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 I am still suspicious that the fish was transferred to a new matrix, whether that be actual stone from the site or not. In my experience, I have never seen a Moroccan fish matrix that was as clean and neat as this one. UV reaction to the border between fossil and matrix would support this suspicion. Still, the fish itself is pretty nice. 2 Still Life Fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 It is not a Rhacolepis buccalis, nor is it a Vinctifer Comptoni or any other Brazilian fish. It's a Moroccan fish! Although the fish found in Goulmima on the foot of the Atlas mountains present a level of preservation very similar to those we are accustomed to seeing in Brazil, they are completely different species! This fish of this post, is of the species: Goulmimichthys arambourgi, that is, an fish extremely common in Goulmima. Unfortunately, the Goulmima craftsmen have a bad habit of sculpting the missing parts of the carbonate concretions, or, with a technique used in Goulmima with weak hydrochloric acid, they remove the fish from the original concretion leaving the fish as exposed as possible to accommodate it in another matrix, and thus with more freedom, artisans can even insert genuine parts that were previously missing: But of course small sculptures to unite the parts are part of this process: And a total painting in the fish helps to "hide" everything that was done! 4 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele 1937 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 and a composition work. inserted in a stone slab. Michele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittenmittens Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Thank you everyone who took the time to help me figure this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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