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KimTexan

Bison bone ID

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KimTexan

I have a few mystery bones from my bison that I don’t know what they are. I’m hoping some of you will know. I found this Monday in situ with bones. It doesn’t have the same texture as the other bones. It feels very different. 

It was found near the scapula if that is of any help. It kind of has an epiphyseal feel to it so I’m wondering if it’s ossified cartilage, but from where I’m not sure. 

These are all pics of the same thing from different angles.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

4AC63C27-161B-41C4-AFEF-CB06F90AAB63.jpeg

140FBA42-EC5E-4352-B95B-32D67962F304.jpeg

658C6AC3-23E9-41C1-B650-A891924BED5E.jpeg

09585BF8-AA96-48DE-B457-1A05187FA803.jpeg

D8CFBBBC-E79A-43DB-9D2D-23BEBFD12308.jpeg

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Rockwood

Dorsal process (insert proper term here) of a thoracic vertebra ? 

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KimTexan

It could be broken on the narrow end, but I don’t think it is. It appears to be whole. If it was bone the exterior surface seems to be gone, I’m thinking it may be ossified cartilage so it wouldn’t have the same smooth surface of bone exterior. I’m just curious as to what it is and where it would be positioned in the skeleton.

 

These are views of the ends.

86EB2DB5-99FF-4956-83F2-1E34976E23C6.thumb.jpeg.959430f643123788b4a06b0c34031119.jpeg

 

This end could be broken. I don’t think it is, but I’m unsure.

397E6433-E79C-4F1F-AEFB-DEFDE565C3EF.thumb.jpeg.dd7c9c280268089af996759362c50628.jpeg

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Carl

There's something very odd about this thing. The texture really weird for bone. Can you provide a close up of the broken surface?

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Rockwood
1 hour ago, Carl said:

There's something very odd about this thing. The texture really weird for bone.

Now that you mention it. . .

It would be super cool if it were a human tool that had been used while butchering it. ?

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KimTexan

Sorry ossified cartilage doesn’t even make sense now that I think about it.  If there is such a thing I’m not sure the texture on the inside would look like bone. Ossified tendons is another matter. I did find ossified tendons near this piece. 

The shape of the piece is distinctively bone, with contouring you’d only see in a bone, but what bone I have no clue.

The broken end looks like bone without question. I’m not at home where I can take a pic of it. I do have pics of other fragments I found that have the similar texture.

 

These are the other fragments. The external surface isn’t quite as eroded, but the pieces have a unique feel and texture to them compared to the other bone fragments.

BA946046-BF01-47A3-A3A1-00C627EA6311.thumb.jpeg.d35f155da93e8c3c3fe59b4e9adea775.jpeg

 

Here those fragments are with other fragments found the same day. The difference is that these unusual pieces were fragments found in the immediate area of the scapula as well as tendon fragments. The other fragments were found in a part of the bank that had collapsed and were in an area where the pelvis had been. About 6 feet distal to where the scapular were.

The 2 bone fragments under the rib on the far Ruth top row are mystery pieces to me too. I assume they’re some weird parts of lumbar vertebral processes. I do t have those vertebrae if they are vertebrae fragments.

804D3CB5-8D9B-45B8-B485-B83A0B56773B.thumb.jpeg.481d524743941aa8313263fe6a999075.jpeg

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Rockwood

Looks like bone again inside, and it's seems about right size to be of the same. 

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KimTexan
8 hours ago, Carl said:

There's something very odd about this thing. The texture really weird for bone. Can you provide a close up of the broken surface?

As requested.

A1A1CEAF-31E9-4F6E-9C4E-9395E821B181.thumb.jpeg.b807bf9668fd16f38b3f8822bb61100b.jpeg

 

Definitely bone. 

You know the little epiphyseal cookies from Miocene cetaceans? If you’ve ever felt or seen those this has something of that quality to it.

F4510735-B80A-454C-AE17-C79C939F4C13.jpeg

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KimTexan

Here is another mystery piece. It came out of the area where the cervical vertebrae were. It doesn’t appear to have any broken surface, a worn, weathered one, but not broken. It is an epiphyseal piece, but I don’t know from where.

I’m calling this the top, just as references. It’s like a cookie only this is a big fat weird looking cookie.

527FF9AE-3562-4F77-96F0-374BC62E505D.thumb.jpeg.974ae46f21f6290ee76425ddaf6e56e8.jpeg

 

Bottom.

B6480FD9-11AB-4406-A1A3-C8FA52F1323D.thumb.jpeg.127e1bfff53efaa51be8a85427a52f91.jpeg

 

Side.

73337BE4-3AE5-43C8-AF52-5B7B40A45F46.thumb.jpeg.bb3e0e1ef83dbaf6dd6272fbdc8f6961.jpeg

 

Edge 1 of side 

389CA748-7566-4B1A-9B3E-54BD96F61645.thumb.jpeg.b26e6a4d0ee6b0fbef7346aea9261cc6.jpeg

 

Edge 2 of side. It has a small wedge broken out of it along a natural weak spot.

4B9A49A2-8824-49CF-97E7-24017C61949E.thumb.jpeg.048a02ded36cc9746250944118bea9e9.jpeg

 

Any clue as to where it is from on the bison?

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ynot

Looks pathologic to Me, but that is just a guess.

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KimTexan

 

22 minutes ago, ynot said:

Looks pathologic to Me, but that is just a guess.

Which one? The first or the last?

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ynot
1 hour ago, KimTexan said:

 

Which one? The first or the last?

Both, but more so for the last one.

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Carl

Yeah. I still agree that it is bone but that outer surface is very odd. Yep - could be pathologic or just some kind of bone texture I've never seen. Very interesting!

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KimTexan
5 hours ago, Carl said:

Yeah. I still agree that it is bone but that outer surface is very odd. Yep - could be pathologic or just some kind of bone texture I've never seen. Very interesting!

I posted them in the trip report thread asking for ID there too.

@5 Humper said “That rounded mystery bone in your above photos about the size of the palm of your hand with flaring edges is from the sternum...it's one of about 6 sternabrae bones.  The ribs extend from the thoracic vertebrae and curve all the way down to meet at the sternum.  The other elongated mystery bone looks like a thyrohyoid or ceratohyoid, best I can tell”

I had to look those things up. They are ligaments. I have never excavated ligaments or seen them in a dig. Tendons yes, but I suppose ligaments could look like that. It would explain why they’re devoid of periosteum.

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abyssunder

There might be a lot of speculation about the features, for someone like me (not knowing exactly what they may represent), who throw-in the possibility of osteoporosis and/or arthritis, beside the natural weathering processes. :)

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KimTexan
On 1/28/2019 at 4:58 PM, abyssunder said:

There might be a lot of speculation about the features, for someone like me (not knowing exactly what they may represent), who throw-in the possibility of osteoporosis and/or arthritis, beside the natural weathering processes. :)

Someone like you? You’re a bit of a mystery man. After all this time I still don’t know your name or background. I think I recall you are from Romania and I believe  you also teach, because if I recall correctly you asked if you could use one of my post’s pictures as an example for teaching.

Is disclosure of your name permissible?

We had a time with @doushantuo revealing his nationality, but we finally drug it out of him.

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DE&i

Hi @KimTexan

I’ve a few ungulate Pleistocene pieces picked up over the years that show some sort of pathology. If its any help to you in distinguishing features on some of your Bison finds.

 

Firstly, is this Bos primigenius cranial from the Devensian Stage.

 

5c5198415bbe2_bisoncranialwithpossiblepathology1a.jpg.1645f499c04e55596d942419f8f3b60c.jpg5c519842b7aa6_bisoncranialwithpossiblepathology1b.jpg.d0a9d964f0fb446b9dd32098e0c4f9d1.jpg5c5198441a2f8_bisoncranialwithpossiblepathology1c.jpg.0cce0349abfd70727212f4c48621040d.jpg5c5198455658e_bisoncranialwithpossiblepathology1d.jpg.dd1a723ef4d3e6a2f8b58ea02a0d2e05.jpg5c519846b61d7_bisoncranialwithpossiblepathology1e.jpg.794d14ce33c0ae9f5b88336f8ae80f10.jpg5c519847ec1dc_bisoncranialwithpossiblepathology1f.jpg.aac0a00bf696db1a28ce322142a87990.jpg

 

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DE&i

Secondly, @KimTexan is this Ulna from a Bison priscus  from the Ipswichian Stage.

 

5c51992a41dd1_partialulnawithpossiblepathology1b.jpg.4c8eeac9eb015de684e26d7b9281aa34.jpg5c51992b9fa62_partialulnawithpossiblepathology1c.jpg.e4636b71675246a608e95b71abb22ea1.jpg5c51992ce0c5d_partialulnawithpossiblepathology1d.jpg.ca1c69d9a14ec610794d71fdcaee9213.jpg5c51992e4d0c4_partialulnawithpossiblepathology1e.jpg.4e55ed25d6d943a925e190b70c9862c5.jpg5c5199301b669_partialulnawithpossiblepathology1f.thumb.jpg.f4d4a5a390e01e5199d30cc609478f99.jpg5c51993173db7_partialulnawithpossiblepathology1g.jpg.86670f9aa6ab8cba861f423457b6a327.jpg5c519932d8d4a_partialulnawithpossiblepathology1h.jpg.b8d98ff528eb3f7a353c0134a3e3f942.jpg

 

 

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abyssunder
15 hours ago, KimTexan said:

Someone like you? You’re a bit of a mystery man. After all this time I still don’t know your name or background. I think I recall you are from Romania and I believe  you also teach, because if I recall correctly you asked if you could use one of my post’s pictures as an example for teaching.

Is disclosure of your name permissible?

We had a time with @doushantuo revealing his nationality, but we finally drug it out of him.

 

A lot of people said in my life that I'm a mysterious man (as I think my username suggests), and that's true. I'm from Romania, Timisoara. My name is not important and my background may be of a long story in a book. I was involved in several domains, most of them related to science, but not all.
You can call me "Lori", a diminutive of my first name.
I requested permission to use some of your relevant pictures related to septarian concretions (if I remember correctly), to use them for further reference in TFF, considering that there is not enought comparative material available in an online search which could demonstrate the particularities of the internal structure of a  broken concretion like that.

The more important thing is what can I give from what I learned in this Forum and from my independent research.
I'm fascinated by your topics, the way they are presented, your curiosity and your knowledge, and I think, I'm not the only one here who have this feeling. :)

 

Sorry for my off-topic.


Darren has nice examples there of Bos/Bison bone pathologies.

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KimTexan
4 hours ago, abyssunder said:

 

A lot of people said in my life that I'm a mysterious man (as I think my username suggests), and that's true. I'm from Romania, Timisoara. My name is not important and my background may be of a long story in a book. I was involved in several domains, most of them related to science, but not all.
You can call me "Lori", a diminutive of my first name.
I requested permission to use some of your relevant pictures related to septarian concretions (if I remember correctly), to use them for further reference in TFF, considering that there is not enought comparative material available in an online search which could demonstrate the particularities of the internal structure of a  broken concretion like that.

The more important thing is what can I give from what I learned in this Forum and from my independent research.
I'm fascinated by your topics, the way they are presented, your curiosity and your knowledge, and I think, I'm not the only one here who have this feeling. :)

 

Sorry for my off-topic.


Darren has nice examples there of Bos/Bison bone pathologies.

“Lori”, I like it. Thanks for providing us with that. I would be interested in hearing more of your “domains”. I do love stories, especially people’s stories of their lives, adventures and experiences good and bad. These make and shape a person. Also, I seem to have the ability to absorb wisdom and learn from their experiences. I love people in general too. Humans are truly amazing and dynamic. There is rarely a dull moment within the heart of a soul.

 

I know one person from Romania. I’ve been acquitted with him for 30 years. His name is Mugor Dorofty (not sure of the spelling). He said he was the first chair violinist for the Romanian symphony orchestra at one point before coming to the US. He is a professor of music.

I started the off-topic. So, if anyone should apologize it should be me. But I don’t feel the need to apologize. I initiated the post. So it is kind of like my own yard, I can plant almost anything I wish in it.

I’m glad a few people enjoy my posts. I do get quite a few comments and PMs to that effect.

 

Speaking of going off topic. This is what going off topic looks like.:P

 

I don’t think I have ever contemplated the combinations of qualities and attributes you mentioned being fascinated by. 

My curiosity is enate. I remember at 4 yes old wondering why when I drank purple grape juice I didn’t pee purple. Nobody could answer my question adequately and it only fueled my curiosity.  It wasn’t a passing inquisitiveness. It has remained ever present on a daily basis.

 

In reflection of my writing ability there are points in time that left an impression upon me regarding my ability of articulation. I wrote a lot for being a child. I kept almost everything to myself. One of my uncles got ahold of something I wrote and was quite impressed with the quality of it for my age. I it encouraged me greatly that what I wrote could be valued by others, not just myself. He was a publisher so his words meant a lot to me.

In college I did volunteered doing freelance photojournalism projects for the university newspaper. I was the photography editor for the yearbook one year and editor the next.

In my senior year of college I had to write a term paper for my English Literature class on Nathaniel Hawthorn’s, “The Scarlet Letter,” The term paper was returned to me ungraded with a strong reprimand to the effect that to not cite my references for a good section of the paper was plagiarism. I went to speak to the professor about the matter. Those were my own words and thoughts. The professor grilled me for quite some time on various aspects of the work. For the first bit he thought I must have taken from someone’s analysis of the work. He was astonished by my depth of insight of the work and of the author and my ability to articulate my thoughts. I think he actually gained new insight into the work from me. I had read it years before and had had time to process it. I got 100% on the paper.

To me writing and expressing myself is second nature. I think nothing of it. It is a gift and a blessing I believe I am to bless others with somehow.

However, I had issues with run on sentences, poor handwriting, punctuation and spelling.

When I started my current job, the director who hired me was a world renowned scientist in our field. He made foundational discoveries. He was greatly respected in the scientific community. As such he was a reviwing editor for journals such as Science, Nature, the New England Journal of Medine and the likes. He was the editor for the main peer review journal in our field, Human Immunology for a while. 

I had to write a significant amount under him. I wrote dozens of technical procedures, Internal Review Board applications and abstracts for research and posters. He refined my writing and broke me of a few bad habits. He is Czechoslovakian who went to medical school in England. He was a true scientist and mentored me professionally in the art of scientific method in clinical research. I worked for him about 15 yrs until he retired. He gave me the honor of coauthoring a chapter in a book with him once and several journal articles. It was an honor to work for him. He had a terrible bedside manner though, to the degree that most employees never dared to approach him or darken his office door.

 

I am sure other things influenced me like English literature and the classics. I was an avid reader. Being raised by wolves ;), having bears roaming through our yard, mountain lions and a plethora of other wild creatures all around us. Growing up off the grid without electricity, television or telephone for many years had to have some impact. If you’re familiar with the old TV show Grizzly Adams, you have a fairly accurate depiction of our lifestyle. That and then there was the traveling gypsy style with my dad for his work for 4 years throughout 40 states. We’d come home periodically. I had a very unconventional and adventurous childhood that I’m sure has colored my style and perspectives.

 

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Coco

Very interesting Kim !

 

8 hours ago, KimTexan said:

I remember at 4 yes old wondering why when I drank purple grape juice I didn’t pee purple.

 

If you want to pee purple, eat beets ! :hearty-laugh: ;)

 

Coco

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KimTexan
14 hours ago, Coco said:

Very interesting Kim !

 

If you want to pee purple, eat beets ! :hearty-laugh: ;)

 

Coco

Will that do it? I like beets and do eat them occasionally.

 

My first job as a Med tech I was the pee queen. I did a lot of testing of pee among other duties. I saw the most unusual pee colors. Chocolate milk in color and opacity, pink, lavender, orange, fluorescent green, blue among others. Some were due to disease, others were due to medication.

 

That was an interesting job. Not because of the pee. The crew and environment were an interesting mix. We would receive  amputated body parts among other tissues that we had to store on the weekend. The guys liked to leave them on the counter/work bench covered up to see my reaction when I went to pick them up or move them, not knowing what they were. It was shocking to pick it up only to realize it was a mangled arm or leg or something. They’d leave it for me to put away in the anatomical pathology refrigerator where I’d only see more disturbing stuff. It was kind of an initiation of the new tech. There was indeed a lot of shock value. Talk about a morbid sense of humor!

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