Spinosaur partial dentary, new find, Sussex Wealden, U.K, 135 million years old

[Haravex]

1 hour ago, Jonwealden said:

 

 

I have researched  this for myself, yes it could be, it's over 10 million years before Walkeri. There are holotypes based on isolated teeth and this jaw could have more erupting teeth hidden inside.  I'm just glad i found it before it was lost to the elements, 

 

 

are there holotypes based on isolated teeth of a spinosauirdae existing before B.Walkeri in the Valanginian era?

[Jonwealden]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostafrikasaurus

 

152 MYA, holotype based on a tooth...

 

The thick and serrated holotype tooth is about 49 mm (1.9 in) in length.

[Birdman]

There is one based on a single tooth from the Jurassic I think. No cranial material though. This is why I got excited when I found a piece of spinosaurid maxilla (the rosette) in Bexhill. 

[Jonwealden]

Yep the only difference to Baryonyx teeth is the larger denticle size, according to Wiki.  

 

[DD1991]

5 hours ago, Haravex said:

are there holotypes based on isolated teeth of a spinosauirdae existing before B.Walkeri in the Valanginian era?

Suchosaurus cultridens has been found in Valanginian-age deposits in West Sussex; it was originally classified as an extinct crocodile until an abstract by Milner (2003) found it to be a spinosaurid related to Baryonyx. Although several authors considered Suchosaurus a possible synonym of Baryonyx, the older age of Suchosaurus coupled with Malafaia et al. (2018) reporting a spinosaurid specimen from Barremian-age deposits in Spain distinct from all known spinosaurid taxa makes clear that Suchosaurus could be a distinct taxon in its own right.

 

Elisabete Malafaia; José Miguel Gasulla; Fernando Escaso; Iván Narváez; José Luis Sanz; Francisco Ortega (2018). New spinosaurid (Theropoda, Megalosauroidea) remains from the Arcillas de Morella Formation (upper Barremian) of Morella, Spain. Cretaceous Research. 92: 174–183. doi:10.1016/j.cretres.2018.08.006.

 

Milner, A., 2003. Fish-eating theropods: A short review of the systematics, biology and palaeobiogeography of spinosaurs. In: Huerta Hurtado and Torcida Fernandez-Baldor (eds.). Actas de las II Jornadas Internacionales sobre Paleontologýa de Dinosaurios y su Entorno (2001). pp 129-138

[paulyb135]

Really cool piece 

 

Have you found any dino teeth from the Isle of Wight 

 

Would love to see images if you have

[Birdman]

9 hours ago, DD1991 said:

Suchosaurus cultridens has been found in Valanginian-age deposits in West Sussex; it was originally classified as an extinct crocodile until an abstract by Milner (2003) found it to be a spinosaurid related to Baryonyx. Although several authors considered Suchosaurus a possible synonym of Baryonyx, the older age of Suchosaurus coupled with Malafaia et al. (2018) reporting a spinosaurid specimen from Barremian-age deposits in Spain distinct from all known spinosaurid taxa makes clear that Suchosaurus could be a distinct taxon in its own right.

 

Elisabete Malafaia; José Miguel Gasulla; Fernando Escaso; Iván Narváez; José Luis Sanz; Francisco Ortega (2018). New spinosaurid (Theropoda, Megalosauroidea) remains from the Arcillas de Morella Formation (upper Barremian) of Morella, Spain. Cretaceous Research. 92: 174–183. doi:10.1016/j.cretres.2018.08.006.

 

Milner, A., 2003. Fish-eating theropods: A short review of the systematics, biology and palaeobiogeography of spinosaurs. In: Huerta Hurtado and Torcida Fernandez-Baldor (eds.). Actas de las II Jornadas Internacionales sobre Paleontologýa de Dinosaurios y su Entorno (2001). pp 129-138

I concur with all that. I have long suspected a distinct species from Baryonyx at the locality where I search (the same area as Jon). The fact that our finds of spinosaurids is quite a bit older than Baryonyx holotype leads me to think that we are dealing with a separate distinct valid taxon.

 

There you go Jon, we are most probably dealing with Suchosaurus with your find and my find. Mystery species solved! Quite possibly.

 

Cheers.

[Abstraktum]

Beautiful piece

 

Sorry to bring in the noobish question now: 

 

Why is this a part of a Spinosaurid jaw? Why not a croc? Another reptile? Any Theropod or Dinosaur?

What is the thought process and what are the necessary keys to determine this as a Spinosaurid?

 

Just want to understand where to look at and why. For everybody it seems obvious to be a Spinosaurid. Unfortunately I don't get it and would love to know why  

Thank you and any help here is welcome 

[Jonwealden]

13 hours ago, paulyb135 said:

Really cool piece 

 

Have you found any dino teeth from the Isle of Wight 

 

Would love to see images if you have

Paul, only been to IOW a few times, found the odd bone there but no teeth. 

[Jonwealden]

1 hour ago, Abstraktum said:

Beautiful piece

 

Sorry to bring in the noobish question now: 

 

Why is this a part of a Spinosaurid jaw? Why not a croc? Another reptile? Any Theropod or Dinosaur?

What is the thought process and what are the necessary keys to determine this as a Spinosaurid?

 

Just want to understand where to look at and why. For everybody it seems obvious to be a Spinosaurid. Unfortunately I don't get it and would love to know why  

Thank you and any help here is welcome 

 

Hi.  Crocodyliforme jaws would be more ornamented on the surface and the jaws of crocodyliform are different.  This jaw is slender, pneumatized.  From a metre plus skull. larger than the large croc Hulkepholis we get here. which are 2-5 metres in total length. 

Allosaur mandibles differ from spinosaur, and posses steak knife teeth. The tooth profile is Spinosaur shaped.  

[Jonwealden]

7 hours ago, Birdman said:

I concur with all that. I have long suspected a distinct species from Baryonyx at the locality where I search (the same area as Jon). The fact that our finds of spinosaurids is quite a bit older than Baryonyx holotype leads me to think that we are dealing with a separate distinct valid taxon.

 

There you go Jon, we are most probably dealing with Suchosaurus with your find and my find. Mystery species solved! Quite possibly.

 

Cheers.

 What age is cultridens exactly ? Fossilworks has it at 125 MYA ! ?  So its 132 MYA plus ?

 

There is Girardi too, partial jaw and tooth. Portugal.

 

The Cuckfield Cultridens tooth is apparently very similar to Baryonyx and Suchomimus. 

 

All said and done, the area we search is a good 5-10  MYA older than Baryonyx.

[Dinoguy89]

On 30/01/2019 at 9:15 AM, Jonwealden said:

Thanks for comments guys. 

I just need to prep some matrix off the lingual side. But here are some images of the cleaner aspects.

 

T = tooth tip.  R = tooth remnant.  Outlined is the 3cm eroded tooth.   Inside the jaw section could be more teeth, of course, a scan would reveal this.

A circular cavity / pneumatic can be seen under the socket cavity.

 

On the left side (under the matrix) is the lingual Mekelian groove, shown as a bite into the edge.

 

 

Two foramen.

Five tooth sockets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow very exciting stuff, I can't imagine your excitement when you found it. Please keep us updated on this

[gms]

Hi Jonwealden. Outstanding find. Museum grade fossil. Congrats!

 

Look at this papers:

https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=1165367

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285762094_A_new_specimen_of_the_theropod_dinosaur_Baryonyx_from_the_early_Cretaceous_of_Portugal_and_taxonomic_validity_of_Suchosaurus

 

Best

[Jonwealden]

Will do Dinoguy89.

 

Thanks, and thank you for the helpful  links, gms.  

 

Both the La Rioja and Portuguese Spinosaurs are Barremian then, same as Walkeri and considered Baryonyx.  

 

 

 

[Paleoworld-101]

A great find indeed. Will this be donated to a research collection? 

[Birdman]

12 hours ago, Jonwealden said:

 What age is cultridens exactly ? Fossilworks has it at 125 MYA ! ?  So its 132 MYA plus ?

 

There is Girardi too, partial jaw and tooth. Portugal.

 

The Cuckfield Cultridens tooth is apparently very similar to Baryonyx and Suchomimus. 

 

All said and done, the area we search is a good 5-10  MYA older than Baryonyx.

It appears to be around the same age as the material we are finding, yes.

 

I have just discovered another Nuthetes destructor, Velociraptorine tooth in my bone bed search. I have posted more pics of the tooth on my thread.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/85134-my-latest-wealden-fossil-finds/&page=4&tab=comments#comment-1012643

 

[Jonwealden]

Lovely tooth Birdman cool find.    

[Gideon]

Only just seen this. Well done Jon. Congrats

[TyBoy]

On 2/1/2019 at 12:36 PM, Abstraktum said:

Beautiful piece

 

Sorry to bring in the noobish question now: 

 

Why is this a part of a Spinosaurid jaw? Why not a croc? Another reptile? Any Theropod or Dinosaur?

What is the thought process and what are the necessary keys to determine this as a Spinosaurid?

 

Just want to understand where to look at and why. For everybody it seems obvious to be a Spinosaurid. Unfortunately I don't get it and would love to know why  

Thank you and any help here is welcome 

Had the same thought.  Looks more croc when you compare it to the Portugal paper on Baryonyx which has a prounced ridge on either side.  Irregular Spacing of tooth sockets along with different sizes.  Not saying its not but just looks different.

[Jonwealden]

This is Spinosaur.

The sockets in this corresponding section of the Portuguese fossil are similar sized, evenly spaced.

 It is definitely not Croc. No ornamentation of the bone,and i am familiar with Croc mandibles.

Also   Hulkepholis,the largest Croc known from here, was up to 5 metres long. The skull this jaw came from was 1 metre minimum.

Without the benefit of handling the fossil  and reliance of one dimensional  images presented on a forum (i especially refer to your comment on ''ridges''), i understand questioning, of course. But this is Spinosaur.

 

[Jonwealden]

5 hours ago, Gideon said:

Only just seen this. Well done Jon. Congrats

Thanks Gideon.

 

I will post more images soon, which i hope might present a better view of the jaw section. and from more angles, once i've prepped the matrix off the other side.

[Jonwealden]

Prepped it a bit since i took these images.

 

 i have been looking at the jaw piece, and there is a small lump of bone in a socket where it shouldn't be .  

 

The eroded tooth is penetrating into this and i think it the remains of bone bitten into, ( the socket at top in first image, and bottom of image in second). Maybe this animal was ambushed and died as it was eating a kill/ a scavenged carcass. Maybe it gave a fight for it. The lump of  bone doesnt appear to be a growth from the jaw itself. More lodged and the tooth penetrating  it seems to be the reason its there.

I will give clearer images of this. Its definitely bone as i can see cell structure though the lens in this area of matrix, over the top of the tooth,.

 

 

[Jonwealden]

[Jonwealden]

On 02/02/2019 at 8:43 AM, Paleoworld-101 said:

A great find indeed. Will this be donated to a research collection? 

 

I contacted Paul Barrett of the UK Natural history museum on the 5th february about the Spinosaur dentary . He has given me a short reply,  informing me that he is passing this onto  ''public enquiries'' , that its being forwarded to the Angela Marmont centre and they will get back to me in due course. This is the  Museum that houses Baryonyx fossils !

 

The forward is to this :   http://www.nhm.ac.uk/take-part/centre-for-uk-biodiversity.html. An I.D service. 

 

Correction UNDERLINED made to P Barrett. Of course, its the second dentary of a Spinosaur on the mainland, after Baryonyx.

 

Dear Mr Barrett

 

 

Recently, i found a section of dentary of a Spinosaur, St Leonards on sea, Sussex. 

 

Its 9 cm long.  5.3 cm high and 2.5 cm thick. 

 

Its anterior mandible, adjacent to the raised rostrum.

 

The age is about 138 MYA, so a very early Spinosaur. 

 

The dimensions indicate a Spinosaur perhaps slightly larger than Baryonyx.

 

There is an eroded tooth at the posterior end. There could well be teeth within the jaw. A scan would reveal this, of course. 

 

I thought it important to contact the Natural history museum and gauge thoughts on the fossil, as it is the first dentary of a Spinosaur on the UK mainland.

 

Perhaps you have been alerted to this already, as i have posted up a thread on the main USA fossil forum about a week ago.

 

Here is a link in case you're unaware of this find, for a summary and some images :

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/92050-spinosaur-partial-dentary-new-find-sussex-wealden-uk-135-million-years-old/&

Appreciate your thoughts,

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paleoworld-101]

On 2/8/2019 at 6:57 AM, Jonwealden said:

 

I contacted Paul Barrett of the UK Natural history museum on the 5th february about the Spinosaur dentary . He has given me a short reply,  informing me that he is passing this onto  ''public enquiries'' , that its being forwarded to the Angela Marmont centre and they will get back to me in due course. This is the  Museum that houses Baryonyx fossils !

 

The forward is to this :   http://www.nhm.ac.uk/take-part/centre-for-uk-biodiversity.html. An I.D service. 

 

Correction UNDERLINED made to P Barrett. Of course, its the second dentary of a Spinosaur on the mainland, after Baryonyx.

 

Dear Mr Barrett

 

 

Recently, i found a section of dentary of a Spinosaur, St Leonards on sea, Sussex. 

 

Its 9 cm long.  5.3 cm high and 2.5 cm thick. 

 

Its anterior mandible, adjacent to the raised rostrum.

 

The age is about 138 MYA, so a very early Spinosaur. 

 

The dimensions indicate a Spinosaur perhaps slightly larger than Baryonyx.

 

There is an eroded tooth at the posterior end. There could well be teeth within the jaw. A scan would reveal this, of course. 

 

I thought it important to contact the Natural history museum and gauge thoughts on the fossil, as it is the first dentary of a Spinosaur on the UK mainland.

 

Perhaps you have been alerted to this already, as i have posted up a thread on the main USA fossil forum about a week ago.

 

Here is a link in case you're unaware of this find, for a summary and some images :

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/92050-spinosaur-partial-dentary-new-find-sussex-wealden-uk-135-million-years-old/&

Appreciate your thoughts,

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good job for doing your part. I actually know Paul, i did a small research internship with him a few years back (he is an ornithischian worker, mostly). I'll be interested to hear how this develops.