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Haravex

Jurassic vertebrae identification

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Haravex

Ok so have recently arrived back from Morocco a good friend over there said he would meet up with me in goulmima and which we spent a good number of days breaking open rocks finding ammonites fish remains gastropods reptiles all good stuff and was beautiful camping out there, but I am shifting topic here. I made a contact last time regarding jurassic fossil remains so this time I divulged from the usual kem kem beds (however ended up digging them in a lesser known location close to goulmima) when I arrived there a ton of jurassic bones where present some easily identifiable as sauropod vertebrae, femur ( yes absolutely massive) digit 1 claw but two vertebrae I purchased where not associated with any of the other finds and I am needing a little help.

 

The first one and pictures attached in this section are one I am currently prepping the process section is elongated after the neural spine canal and is approximately 1.3 times the size of the Centrum with one side being slightly concave and the other being flat. Again it might be hard to see the bone as this is being prepped now currently but to my eyes has similarities to a stegosaurus vertebrae. This vert I believe to be dorsal is 10.5 inches tall the centrum at it's largest point is 4.2 inches wide and the depth would be 4

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Haravex

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Haravex

The second vertebrae is smaller 6 inches from top of neural spine to bottom of centrum. The centrum itself measures 4 inches in length 2.5 inches in height and 3 inches wide and seems to still have some rib attached to it, ruling out caudal but could be either dorsal of a possible theropod or cervical of a sauropod however it lacks the heavy pneumatisation I have seen previously in sauropod vertebrae.

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Haravex

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Tidgy's Dad

Very nice.:)

Sorry, no idea what it is but i'd love to see some photos of the invertebrates you found at some point please. 

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Haravex

I'll post the entire trip and finds in a separate topic tidgy 

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LordTrilobite

The first vertebra does seem unusually tall. Reminds most of Ceratopsids and yeah, Stegosaurids. But I'm not as familiar with Jurassic material. An interesting piece. But the neural arch seems a bit busted up. Perhaps a bit more prep can shed light on it some more when more features are visible? So right now I dunno.

 

 

The second one I am reasonably sure about though. That very much looks like the cervical vertebra of an Ornithopod. If it's Jurassic then it's too early for Hadrosaur. But it seems like a good match for Iguanodontid.

But I am unaware of any confirmed Ornithopod bones from Morocco to date. The only thing I know is that there is a single footprint from the Kem Kem beds that is ascribed to an Ornithopod.

 

 

Actually on second glance. That first dorsal vertebra also looks like it could be Ornithopod.

 

 

Some reference material.

 

Ouranosaurus cervical vertebrae

MSNVE-3714-cervical-vertebrae-Axis-in-cranial-A-right-lateral-B-left-lateral-C.jpg.a8b718d8b7594bafea62aa6fadcea3ec.jpg

 

Camptosaurus cervical vertebrae

Comparisons-of-the-cervical-vertebrae-in-left-lateral-view-for-two-species-of.png.3a5586636aa5c93b3f9ea0564481d92a.png

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Haravex

Thanks for your input LT it really is appreciated what would you say these vertebrae say to you rembering they are 50my earlier than kem kem beds so no relation in fauna would you say these is any possibility of these being from a sauropod? As this is my main concern going to an official body of science and saying hey this is a new species possibly as so far the only confirmed one is atlasasaurus from this formation.

 

Thanks Matt

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Haravex

Also just as a disclaimer these fossils if new to science are going to be donated to the appropriate body of science for further study and for anyone who might say well this should be done by the paleontology governing body of Morocco if these men didn't do it the elements would surely destroy them there are already plant roots visable on these verts

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LordTrilobite

Sauropod? The first vertebra might be.

But I don't see the second vert being Sauropod at all. As is, I see an Ornithopod cervical vertebra. But a bit of cleaning might help. The main thing is to confirm or disconfirm if it is indeed a cervical vertebra. The question is if there's a pleurocoel on the centrum.

But it doesn't look like Sauropod to me at all. Though keep in mind that I do not have much experience with Sauropods. I focus mainly on Theropods and Ornithopods as well as some Ceratopsian.

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Haravex

With these vertebrae would you say these should be taken to a professional to further identify them? Just so I don't waste anyone's time.

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LordTrilobite

I don't see how wanting to learn more is wasting time. So yes, I think asking others especially experts in the field is worth the time.

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Tidgy's Dad
51 minutes ago, Haravex said:

Also just as a disclaimer these fossils if new to science are going to be donated to the appropriate body of science for further study and for anyone who might say well this should be done by the paleontology governing body of Morocco if these men didn't do it the elements would surely destroy them there are already plant roots visable on these verts

Hmmm.

So you are saying because the Moroccan palaeontologists didn't find these pieces, they are fair game for the casual collector or they would erode away? I certainly agree.To an extent.

Well, that's true of any country, one has to rely on the sheer volume of casual collectors compared to the tiny number of professional palaeotologists, they can't possibly find all the important specimens. They rely on the general public and amateur collectors. 

You are basically saying that if i went to the USA and found a missing piece of "Jane" the tyrannosaurid and took it home to donate to a Moroccan institute because it had a dandelion growing on it, that's okay?  

We're learning here, palaeontology is improving but still in its infancy, but if people keep on selling, stealing or taking away Morocco's cultural heritage, then the laws on sales and export are going to tighten like they have in so many other countries. 

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Haravex

Any fossil saved from the elements is a 100 percent victory in my eyes what happens after the percentage of this success is of variance to what happens to it and where it ends up with the lowest success rate of 5 in a private collection never to be seen again. 10 percent to be stored away in a museum collection never to be seen again for a considerable amount of time say 40 plus years 20 percent victory again in terms of what happens when it is rescued from the elements the rest of my calculations are based upon if it is a new species or has scientifical benefit to previous known specimens the highest of these being 60 percent new species new discovery identified and showcased by any governing body of paleontology. I apologise if this might offended but if a country is too incoherent to allocate government fund to preserve and work with local individuals in preserving their heritage this responsibility must be taken up by those more concerned. Again new species possibly gets described by a legit body that will not take a back hander and just flog it on to the highest buyer and possibly returned to the country of origin I don't see an issue with this.

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Flx

I am pretty sure the first one is a partial sauropod dorsal vertebra. 

Not sure about the others.

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Haravex

Thanks fix there is only one other. The size to the first vertebrae is smaller than the recorded size for atlasaurus the only described dinosaur from this formation do you think possibly a juvenile or possibly second unidentified species of sauropod?

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Flx

Hm... i looked at the sauropod vert pictures i had in mind. I does not really match so my first thought was probably wrong.

I would be very intetested to see the vert after prepping. :)

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Haravex

so currently I am in at 25 hours prep work on the single dorsal vertebrae it does not fit a match for ornithopod and fits in my view more similarly to Thyreophora type vertebraethe evidence attached in images below the reason i state this is after reaching the main process section the posterior side has been eroded where the neural spine would exist for this type of ornithischian the problem i face now is i have not received a single email back from any establishment I have contacted I really want to give this to science to describe new species but I am running myself down in costs in initial purchase cost and then further in prep time. What do I do?

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Haravex

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Haravex

do you know why people become commercial in the fossil industry is because nobody gives a stuff i have spoken about how roots have grown through the fossils i have obtained nobody bats an eyelid when When I talked about the fossils that I have obtained from the camp camp beds everyone is ok service it is routine to see fossils from kem kem beds but what people do not understand is the fact that the from this formation the fossils have to be dug in to a cliff face this is destructive for the environment these fossils from the Jurassic era and not being obtained from deep within and mine these are being obtained on the ground surface and it is by these fossils that we need to look and understand that they will deteriorate if nobody is to collect them

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Troodon

 Any chance it's early Jurassic because could be sauropod 

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Troodon

Check this out early jurassic Tazoudasaurus from the high atlas mountains..

 

Tazoudasaurus.thumb.jpg.fd666f2e47c2c6fd8f90e6901a6b0959.jpg20190318_172618.thumb.png.84a2667e400c57e3e515cd44ae34b22f.png

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