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My adventures in bison prep


KimTexan

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This is a pic with some of the clumps of dirt off of it.

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I have a few large fragments that will fill in some of the stuff on the right.

Bottom left there was a part that was broken off before I got to it and was held in place by the dirt. It looks like a finger like projection. I removed the clumps of dirt and put a thicker B76 solution on it. It’s being held in place by a foot bone. Hopefully it will be dry by tomorrow afternoon and hold in place.. I’m telling that so people don’t wonder what that is.

I’ve also put B76 on dirt with lose bone fragments to hold them in proximity to where they belong.

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6 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

They are relatively modern and fragile. The Cretaceous rocks in the area contain no freshwater species of snails. If you look around you may find some freshwater clams/mussels. NSR has lots of freshwater clams.

These snails were inside the cranium. Where the brain would be. So I know they are relative to the time the bison lived in, whether it be late Pleistocene or early Holocene. I hope their ID might help with narrowing a date down for the bison. That may not happen, but it’s worth asking.

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I tried to post this last night, but the file was too big and I was in bed. The top of the skull has lots of little cracks. The day I removed it I had cyanoacrylate with me so I doused the area with the CA.

There is one running down the middle. A couple top left, bottom right and elsewhere.

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Kim, you have uncovered quite a lovely beast...how much fun are you having?!

 

I see that you mention not knowing if this specimen comes from the Pleistocene or Holocene...I may have missed this information in the previous threads, but without knowing, I am curious how you are sure this is a fossil? 

 

I've never found anything so young, so I have no experience in such bones...always looking to learn.

 

Super cool find, nonetheless. I found this...

 

Late Pleistocene and Holocene Bison of Grand Canyon and Colorado Plateau: Implications from the use of Paleobiology for Natural Resource Management Policy

 

...while attempting to educate myself.

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"I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?"  ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) 

 

New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins    

 

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1 hour ago, PFOOLEY said:

Kim, you have uncovered quite a lovely beast...how much fun are you having?!

 

I see that you mention not knowing if this specimen comes from the Pleistocene or Holocene...I may have missed this information in the previous threads, but without knowing, I am curious how you are sure this is a fossil? 

 

I've never found anything so young, so I have no experience in such bones...always looking to learn.

 

Super cool find, nonetheless. I found this...

 

Late Pleistocene and Holocene Bison of Grand Canyon and Colorado Plateau: Implications from the use of Paleobiology for Natural Resource Management Policy

 

...while attempting to educate myself.

That is a good question and one I don’t have a good answer for. The answer is a long discussion too.

In this part of North Texas it is common to find Pleistocene material that is not mineralized. Possibly more common than not. The Waco Mammoth National Park is Pleistocene, but the mammoths were maybe 5 feet down in the ground. Their bones are not mineralized. They’re more like soft chalk in consistency. 

I have other Pleistocene bones from the NSR that have very little mineralization to none, but I know they are Pleistocene. Some I found weathering out of a Pleistocene layer.

I believe a few of the bones are partially mineralized, but it’s hard to tell. That’s why I was collecting snails from the bison in hopes that their ID may be helpful in determining the age. I have some small wood fragments from the bison layer too.

I’m not a geologist. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between Holocene and Pleistocene.

The fact that they are so close to the Cretaceous in the strata is a good indication, but not conclusive. 

I plan to see a bison specialist this evening at the DPS monthly meeting. I don’t know if he can tell me anything, but I’m hoping he can shed some light on it.

Friday I will be taking it to a college paleo prep lab where they are prepping a mammoth and maybe  they can give me guidance.

Whatever the case I believe it would be early Holocene at the youngest. 

I’ll give an update after talking to Tom Vance and Lori Gouge the person with the college paleo prep lab department chair.

 

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There is a suture right down the center of the skull.  This is a bison skull cap I found years ago in a stream bed.  When I pulled it out it was full of mud, and I tossed it over my shoulder to carry it out.  It broke in two instantly!!  I glued it back together with Elmer's glue, and it's been hanging over my door for the last 10+ years.

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For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun.
-Aldo Leopold
 

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1 minute ago, KimTexan said:

Per Tom Vance he believes it is Bison antiquus. So cool! I would have never thought that.

Very cool.  Did he mention the distinguishing characters that led to his conclusion?  They are the critical points of an identification.

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The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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28 minutes ago, KimTexan said:

Per Tom Vance he believes it is Bison antiquus. So cool! I would have never thought that.

That is great news.  For most of us hobbyists, the key diagnostic feature would be at least one nearly complete horn core.  I too am curious what additional biometrics Vance paid attention to, and what his confidence level is, based on what is preserved.  I'm glad you put forth the effort to have this looked at by an experienced professional, in person.  Level of completeness and good condition of the skeleton threw me off and made me hedge toward something more recent.  Judging age of finds like this is a slippery slope when viewing photos alone, and I tend to take the approach of assuming it is subfossil, then proving it is a fossil.  In doing so in armchair fashion, I ran into a dead end and felt Tom Vance would be the best resource available.  For reference, another forum member found a very similar Bison skeleton in Central Texas a couple years ago, and it turned out to be 700 +/- years old.  

 

I guess I'll take that Titanus walleri egg to the face now, hahaha!

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Grüße,

Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas

"To the motivated go the spoils."

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He seemed to focus on the orientation and position/angle of the horns and the direction they seemed to be pointing. He said having the full horn cores would solidify the ID. In the absence of them that was his best assessment.

His stuck to the B. antiquus when I told him I had concluded it was most likely B. bison. He didn’t hedge. He suggested I write it up.

Edit:

I talked to him after the DPS meeting for a bit and by then he was saying it was “Definitely B. antiquus”

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Congratulations on your fossil bison discovery.

 

When you eventually get the skull stabilized and photographed from the standard views, it would be great if Mr. Vance could mark up the images showing his thoughts.  It would serve to educate many going forward.  :)

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The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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48 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Congratulations on your fossil bison discovery.

 

When you eventually get the skull stabilized and photographed from the standard views, it would be great if Mr. Vance could mark up the images showing his thoughts.  It would serve to educate many going forward.  :)

He strongly encouraged me to create a photo atlas of my bones and seek to have it included in an DPS occasional paper. He said there is no atlas of Bison antiquus bones.

While speaking with him he called Phillip Scoggins over. He is the current DPS president. Tom told Phillip of the need for an atlas and that the DPS should take this opportunity to publish one.

 

I believe he is very knowledgeable, but my personal preference is to reinforce professional opinions with scientific data. I would want scientific confirmation such as measurements or something to have sound evidence it is indeed a Bison antiquus, before putting anything to print.

I was mentored by a doctor and researcher who was a scientist of the highest caliber and was world renowned within our field. It is hard to deviate from your upbringing.

So I need to figure out how I can go about confirming that.

I think it was @Harry Pristis who provided me with this.

I don’t know how to make the measurements for items 2-4. Still the measurements don’t seem conclusive. What I was able to measure is written in pencil.

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6 hours ago, Ramo said:

There is a suture right down the center of the skull.  This is a bison skull cap I found years ago in a stream bed.  When I pulled it out it was full of mud, and I tossed it over my shoulder to carry it out.  It broke in two instantly!!  I glued it back together with Elmer's glue, and it's been hanging over my door for the last 10+ years.

20190213_150514.jpg

That’s a cool skull. I wish the horns were in place on mine. I have the rest of the skull too. That looks like a common place for them to break.

He did say mine was a mature bison because all of the skull sutures were closed. He said it would have stood about 8 feet tall at the shoulder. He looked at the teeth closely and said it had been eating a lot of rough, dry vegetation, which meant it was either in an extended drought or very arid environment where green tender grass was not abundant.

He believed it to be in the 8,000-10,000 yr old range. 

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If you see any reason to broaden the discussion at this point, Jon Baskin at A&M Kingsville has published on much of the Pleistocene fauna of Texas, mainly in the Nueces River valley.  Another good resource is Dr. Richard Hulbert at the FLMNH.  I've had him look at a lot of my stuff via emailed photos and found him to be rather responsive, but I've never had the opportunity or need to put anything in hand for him.  

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Grüße,

Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas

"To the motivated go the spoils."

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1 hour ago, Uncle Siphuncle said:

If you see any reason to broaden the discussion at this point, Jon Baskin at A&M Kingsville has published on much of the Pleistocene fauna of Texas, mainly in the Nueces River valley.  Another good resource is Dr. Richard Hulbert at the FLMNH.  I've had him look at a lot of my stuff via emailed photos and found him to be rather responsive, but I've never had the opportunity or need to put anything in hand for him.  

Thank you very much for that info. 

I am willing to accept his professional opinion as is, but if I were to put my name on a published article or something I want scientific data to back it up. All loopholes must be closed and gaps filled so that it can hold water. There have to be papers out there with the key to ID confirmation. Maybe there isn’t a 100% definitive ID with only partial horns. I don’t know. Maybe I’m expecting too much since I don’t have the full horns.

 

I have never published anything scientificly outside of my own professional field, but science is science and peer review should hold the same standards in one scientific field as another. That said all peer reviewe is not created equal. 

 

Tom Vance has given his professional opinion. In my mind I need to give him the professional courtesy of helping figure out how to confirm that ID if I were to do the atlas. I have every reason to believe he will help me confirm the ID. I think it would be something of a slap in the face to go running off for a 2nd opinion just yet.

I need to appt myself to finding the supporting papers.

Mr. Vance was gracious enough to supply me with a paper on complete bison skeletal anatomy which will be very helpful. He also gave me a manuscript on Musk Oz he has written. He was very nice, helpful and encouraging.

 

Also, he is a fellow DPS member of good reputation. I’m a fairly loyal sort that believes in building and supporting one’s community and showing respect to all, especially those in one’s community. DPS is my paleo community.

This has been a very good experience for learning. 

 

I was swarmed at the DPS meeting by a dozen plus people wanting to see and ask questions. There was this curly headed youth of maybe 12 there filled with much curiosity. He pushed his way through the adults right next to my side and stayed there. This was serious business to him. He had a journal. He stood there interjecting his own questions and taking notes in his book. It was quite adorable and encouraging to see a youth so engaged in something besides a video game. I wish I’d gotten his name. I was quite distracted by people asking me so many questions.

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I’d put my faith in Vance’s opinion as well and if other opinions are to be brought in, let that be at his behest.

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Grüße,

Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas

"To the motivated go the spoils."

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11 hours ago, Uncle Siphuncle said:

Judging age of finds like this is a slippery slope when viewing photos alone, and I tend to take the approach of assuming it is subfossil, then proving it is a fossil.

As you should. It is always best to assume the most likely and then allow the situation to prove otherwise as more data arrives. This was the very same process I went through with the discovery and identification of Flexomornis howei. I found the first bone and Dr. Tykoski said “It looks like a carpometacarpus from a bird but there’s no known birds from the Woodbine so that’s probably not it.” More bones were collected and the data eventually proved his original suspicions to be true.

 

You didn’t make a mistake, you were performing good science. I went out on a limb with my Pleistocene assertions and got lucky. I’ll take it though! Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good. :-P (the emojis wouldn’t load or I would use the tongue sticking out one here.)

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55 minutes ago, Ptychodus04 said:

As you should. It is always best to assume the most likely and then allow the situation to prove otherwise as more data arrives. This was the very same process I went through with the discovery and identification of Flexomornis howei. I found the first bone and Dr. Tykoski said “It looks like a carpometacarpus from a bird but there’s no known birds from the Woodbine so that’s probably not it.” More bones were collected and the data eventually proved his original suspicions to be true.

 

You didn’t make a mistake, you were performing good science. I went out on a limb with my Pleistocene assertions and got lucky. I’ll take it though! Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good. :-P (the emojis wouldn’t load or I would use the tongue sticking out one here.)

I’m not an emoji guy, so I'm just gonna leave this right here....mua ha ha.

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Grüße,

Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas

"To the motivated go the spoils."

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23 minutes ago, Ptychodus04 said:

 

Nice jaw. Canid?

Smilodon fatalis, baby.

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Grüße,

Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas

"To the motivated go the spoils."

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16 hours ago, Uncle Siphuncle said:

 

I guess I'll take that Titanus walleri egg to the face now, hahaha!

Why would there be any egg in the face at all Dan? You gave the best guidance you could with the info provided. It is far better to err on the side of caution in such matters.

As it is I don’t see that you have any responsibility or obligations whatsoever. This is an open forum community. Nothing is binding. We each contribute what we are able or comfortable with contributing.

Thank you for all you input and sharing of your wisdom and guidance. I would never have inquired of Tom Vance if you hadn’t encouraged me to. Thank you for encouraging me to.

 

@JohnJ

Thank you for sharing your thoughts as well and encouraging me to take the skull anyway. I wouldn’t have done so except for you sharing your opinion, which I respect.

 

@Ptychodus04

Thank you for all your guidance and encouragement too.

 

You've all been a great help.

 

I’ve still got a ways to go with this beast. I’m not done yet.

 

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We all hit the field with our personal filters and biases in place.  I happen to have a strong bias against loading my house and barn with cow bones.  Bison of any age is welcome; cow is not, so I approach all bovids with heightened skepticism (same with horse and turtle), since they are both common and easily confused unless preservation provides unequivocal basis for “age discrimination”.  Often there is no smoking gun, and that’s where my bias steps in.  I hope to mistakenly leave more Bison bones in the field than cow bones misidentified and mistakenly retained.  And I prefer my Titanus walleri eggs scrambled.

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Grüße,

Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas

"To the motivated go the spoils."

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We all hit the Fossil Forum with our personal biases and filters as well.  I skipped this one for too long cause I saw it was a but bison....But hey, there has been some great discussions in here.  

 

Kim, a good way to dissolve plastic beads of whatever type is to hang them in a little cheesecloth baggie tied with a string and then hang the string over the edge of the jar with acetone in it,  such that it gets pinched between the jar and the lid.  If it is hanging oyu get acetone flowing from all dorections and you can hudge it along wth a little shaking occasionally.  But best is the magnetic stirrer.    

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