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Kritosaurus Real or not from Aguja Fm Texas


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I'm not very familar with Kritosaurus but all of a sudden lots of offerings appear on websites and auctions, goodies from Tucson ?  I was interested in a tooth so I started fo do some research to validate their claims.  Again trust no ID you see from diggers, sellers and collectors, how many times has that been said yet collectors seem to ignore it..  I also do know that other than the skull elements hardosaur material is very hard to ID to a specific genus and even more so to a speices

 

What is being offered are Kritosaurus bones and teeth like the ones in the photos.   Most were identified as Kritosaurus but some were called Kritosaurus navajovius.  One identified them as either Kritosaurus or Angulomastacator.   So I decided to hit the technical papers to clear some of the fog away and deal in facts at least to my limited reach.

 

Fact:

- Kritosaurus navajovius is only described from New Mexico and not Texas

Angulomastacator daviesi appears to be the only decribed Hadrosauridae in the Aguja.  Its a Lambeosaurus

- Material similar to Kritosaurus has been found in the Aguja but yet to be assigned to any particular hadrosaur (cf Kritosaurus)

- Similar age deposits in Belly Group of Canada and Judith River have shown  a diverse population of hadrosaurs in the Campanian age.

 

Conclusion:

I find it difficult for anyone to assign a genus or species name to any tooth or bones being offered unless it was found in conjuction with diagnostic skull material.   Given the diverse hadrosaur population in other campanian deposits its hard to believe that new discoveries will not uncover new identifiable hadrosaur material in the Aguja at least more than 2 species.

Sorry but the most accurate identification I can recommend is Hadrosaurid indet.  Why Kritosaurus and not Angulomastacator at least its valid.  Collectors and sellers need names to collect and sell its just the way the fossil world spins.  A genus/species name is a lot sexier than a family name

 

 

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Not sure about ID, but i am literally in Terlingua right now and i am going looking for some more of these as soon as i find my boots...

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When one states "Fact", I think that what follows should be factually accurate whatever the "point of the topic". 

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Life's Good!

Tortoise Friend.

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7 hours ago, TyBoy said:

I'm not very familar with Kritosaurus but all of a sudden lots of offerings appear on websites and auctions, goodies from Tucson ?  I was interested in a tooth so I started fo do some research to validate their claims.  Again trust no ID you see from diggers, sellers and collectors, how many times has that been said yet collectors seem to ignore it..  I also do know that other than the skull elements hardosaur material is very hard to ID to a specific genus and even more so to a speices

It started some time last year I think.
I bought a piece of a dentary also from Aguja fm. last year.

 

I might need to revisit the labeling. Though it's a little more complete than most of the offered pieces it's still quite fragmentary.

 

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Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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I am gonna play Devil's advocate here.

 

I believe that most of the Kritosaurus material we see on the market originates from Andre LuJan, owner of Paleotex. He owes exposures of Aguja Formation and he opened the Texas Through Time museum.

 

I have a pipefish fossil (Hipposygnathus sp.) that is said by most dealers to be from the Vaqueros Formation. A digger saw my fossil and was adamant that it came from the Monterey Formation instead. His reasoning is that he digs that area personally and knows the fossils there better than what dealers would. His information isn't reflected on papers as far as I know, but hey maybe Andre knows something we don't?

 

I've tried contacting him before but he isn't an easy person to find. Maybe someone who lives in Central Texas could pay his museum a visit and ask him how he diagnoses these bones as being from Kritosaurus.

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Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday!

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9 hours ago, -Andy- said:

I am gonna play Devil's advocate here.

 

I believe that most of the Kritosaurus material we see on the market originates from Andre LuJan, owner of Paleotex. He owes exposures of Aguja Formation and he opened the Texas Through Time museum.

 

I have a pipefish fossil (Hipposygnathus sp.) that is said by most dealers to be from the Vaqueros Formation. A digger saw my fossil and was adamant that it came from the Monterey Formation instead. His reasoning is that he digs that area personally and knows the fossils there better than what dealers would. His information isn't reflected on papers as far as I know, but hey maybe Andre knows something we don't?

 

I've tried contacting him before but he isn't an easy person to find. Maybe someone who lives in Central Texas could pay his museum a visit and ask him how he diagnoses these bones as being from Kritosaurus.

That would be interesting since if thats what he's doing he can ID hadrosaur fragments and teeth to a genus level.  Not sure any paleontologist is capable of that.  I saw him on TV the other day.  He was a dinosaur expert on Pawn Stars.  Instantly ID a Jurassic leg to a Camarasaurus another feat of majic.  But its TV..   Sorry I am very sceptical since the material being sold are just fragments and non descript teeth with no features.   The equivalent Belly River exposures have 5 or 6 different hadrosaurs described from it so its fair to say there should be more in these deposits.   

Cannot hurt to hear what he has to say.   Also good to hear from real paleontologists and not just diggers since they look at the science and not the profit.  Here is one paper.

Kritosaurus

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I made this points a while ago but not has effective as TyBoy.    I have a difficult time with anyone trying to assign a species or genus to isolated hadrosaur material unless it comes directly from a bonebed or is associated with diagnostic skull remains.   What I see for sale appears to be isolated pieces that can be attributed to any known or yet undiscovered hadrosaur.   A seller was at the Tucson show selling his Aguja material but did not ask him about Kritosaurus.   I did picked up a nice Nodosaur tooth.  

 

The other comment I will make is that the sellers shown in TyBoy's first page are definitely wrong by assigning their material to a genus or species. 

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6 hours ago, TyBoy said:

That would be interesting since if thats what he's doing he can ID hadrosaur fragments and teeth to a genus level.  Not sure any paleontologist is capable of that.  I saw him on TV the other day.  He was a dinosaur expert on Pawn Stars.  Instantly ID a Jurassic leg to a Camarasaurus another feat of majic.  But its TV..   Sorry I am very sceptical since the material being sold are just fragments and non descript teeth with no features.   The equivalent Belly River exposures have 5 or 6 different hadrosaurs described from it so its fair to say there should be more in these deposits.   

Cannot hurt to hear what he has to say.   Also good to hear from real paleontologists and not just diggers since they look at the science and not the profit.  Here is one paper.

Kritosaurus

 

I have a chunkosaurus that the seller told me was Kritosaurus. (The only one time I got a hold of him to ask questions)

 

When I asked him how he knew for sure it was Kritosaurus, he said it was found in association with a Kritosaurus skeleton, and he was reasonably certain it was from the same creature but he didn't know which part exactly.

 

It's good to be skeptical. I like the seller's material but I have my reservations at times.

Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday!

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Unless there were skull elements ID is uncertain... but nevertheless its cf Kritosaurus.    That may explain some of the material but its hard to believe all of it.  I love his stuff and have gotten some nice tyranno teeth from him.  Really need to get to the bottom of this.

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