BobWill Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I found this twiggy fossil at the Lost Creek Dam site in Jacksboro Texas. It's the Finis Shale Member of the Graham Formation, Upper Pennsylvanian. I thought it might be a Fissispongia jacksboroensis but now I'm wondering if that is right. The two branch-like protuberances have some wavy striations on them I haven't seen before. Any ideas? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbrindacier Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Other sponges ? "On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry) "We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes." In memory of Doren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 I just got this reply from Dr. Ben Neuman, Chair of Biological Sciences at Texas A&M Texarcana. "From the size and the way it looks, it's most likely a bryozoan holdfast - something like a Rhombocladia or Pinnatopora maybe, both of which I have seen at that site. Not sure what their bases look like. I think the way to investigate is just to polish off the very tips of the stripey thing - see if they are made of little tabulate chambers like a bryozoan." I will try to polish the ends to see it I can tell something. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 Polishing the end did not expose anything useful but I realized that there are two and a possible third branch, all in a row. Looking through Index Fossils of North America at some bryozoans with fenestrate architecture I found an older species, Fenestrellina stellata, described as having "pecular channeling of branches and dissepiments [cross bars]" so I think Dr. Neuman may be on the right track. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Sorry cant help with ID but it's very beautiful whatever it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Gorgonians have very similar holdfasts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Al Dente said: Gorgonians have very similar holdfasts. Great! I'll just label it "Coral, Sponge or Bryozoan" and let the observer choose I'm afraid I know very little about all of them so my question may not make sense but can a coral have two holdfasts beside each other like this, or do you think the branches with the wavy grooves are where two corals attached to whatever this stick is? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 49 minutes ago, BobWill said: 'm afraid I know very little about all of them so my question may not make sense but can a coral have two holdfasts beside each other like this, or do you think the branches with the wavy grooves are where two corals attached to whatever this stick is? I think it can be more than one individual or a single one that branched. This thread has nice photos of modern soft corals with grooved bases.http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/81182-what-is-this/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 My first thought, seeing those special details, was holdfast. I agree that the gorgonian coral holdfast(s) might be a possibility, but what is bothering me, is that I don't know if they were present in the Carboniferous. 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 hours ago, BobWill said: Polishing the end did not expose anything useful but I realized that there are two and a possible third branch, all in a row. Can we have some images of the polished ends, Bob? 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 37 minutes ago, abyssunder said: Can we have some images of the polished ends, Bob? I'm afraid this is all I could manage to expose with some 400 grit sandpaper. I don't know what else I should use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves64 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 600 & 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper may expose more, simply by smoothing the scratches away. I hand sand rocks & amber & generally end up going as high as a 14,000 grit equivalent bonded sanding sheet, but 600 followed by 1000 should do the trick for "cleaning a window" so to speak. 2 Accomplishing the impossible means only that the boss will add it to your regular duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Here’s a photo of a Paleozoic bryozoan holdfast and the publication that it was published in. You might send your photos to one of the authors, they might respond and send you in the right direction. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 18 hours ago, BobWill said: I'm afraid this is all I could manage to expose with some 400 grit sandpaper. I don't know what else I should use. Thank you for the picture, Bob. I'm late as always. Eric has posted what I want to post yesterday. The reason why I asked for the polished transverse section was to see the concentric "rings", but I'm not sure I can see them in your specimen. 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 It looks like @Al Dente was on the right track with this fossil. A drawing on the cover of Fossil News The Journal of Avocational Paleontology Vol.21.4 - Winter 2018 shows an image that looks identical to this fossil. It's part of an article about the history of paleontological illustration and is described as an "Articulated coral extremely common in all exposures of the hills of Messina." Now if someone from Sicily can recognize which coral that drawing is depicting we'll have the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 hour ago, BobWill said: It looks like @Al Dente was on the right track with this fossil. A drawing on the cover of Fossil News The Journal of Avocational Paleontology Vol.21.4 - Winter 2018 shows an image that looks identical to this fossil. It's part of an article about the history of paleontological illustration and is described as an "Articulated coral extremely common in all exposures of the hills of Messina." Now if someone from Sicily can recognize which coral that drawing is depicting we'll have the answer. Do you have a picture of the drawing of the coral to post? My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 7 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said: Do you have a picture of the drawing of the coral to post? Sorry, I had to get my scanner working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 9 hours ago, BobWill said: It looks like @Al Dente was on the right track with this fossil. A drawing on the cover of Fossil News The Journal of Avocational Paleontology Vol.21.4 - Winter 2018 shows an image that looks identical to this fossil. It's part of an article about the history of paleontological illustration and is described as an "Articulated coral extremely common in all exposures of the hills of Messina." Now if someone from Sicily can recognize which coral that drawing is depicting we'll have the answer. The fossil bearing formations of that area of Sicily appear to be Tertiary or newer. If we could find out the species of the coral drawing which is from a 1600’s Italian paper, it might not be very helpful since your fossil is much older. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_Sicily Can anyone find the article that contained the drawing in order to find the species of the coral? See description from the Fossil News magazine. “Cover: The Winter 2018 issue is a focus on paleontological illustration through the last three centuries. Pictured: “‘Articulated’ coral extremely common in all exposures of the hills of Messina” from La Vana Speculazione Disingannata dal Senso: Lettera Risponsiva Circa i Corpi Marini, Che Petrificati si Trouano in Varij Luoghi Terrestri (1670) by Agostino Scilla.” My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBchiefski Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said: Can anyone find the article that contained the drawing in order to find the species of the coral? See description from the Fossil News magazine. “Cover: The Winter 2018 issue is a focus on paleontological illustration through the last three centuries. Pictured: “‘Articulated’ coral extremely common in all exposures of the hills of Messina” from La Vana Speculazione Disingannata dal Senso: Lettera Risponsiva Circa i Corpi Marini, Che Petrificati si Trouano in Varij Luoghi Terrestri (1670) by Agostino Scilla.” 4 @BobWill Not in English but: https://archive.org/details/lavanaspeculazio00scil/page/n225 Hope this helps you guys. Edited March 21, 2019 by CBchiefski typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 See the description of the plate XXI. It does not list species since it predates Linnaeus’ binomial Latin species names. I think that I see that it is an articulated coral from the hills of Messina. Anyone able to translate it better? My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 Since the publication is that old and the strata is that young it's unlikely this will help us outside of placing this in the right phylum, maybe class. That is a good start just being able to rule out sponge and bryozoa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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