SueBSouth Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Greetings! I was totally captivated by this and snapped it up at our Gem Society Auction, a donation , and I have no information on it. Appears to be in a slab of shale? Imprint is about 3" long (pen next to it in photo 1 to show width of slab) Photo 3 is the backside of it. Any help appreciated - especially just to know if I was an implusive idiot to bid on this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 This looks like a Gosiutichthys parvus, from the Green River Formation. Not sure from where though, as it doesn't look like typical Wyoming matrix. This is the correct orientation: I think if you are entranced by something, you should never feel like you made a bad decision to buy it. 3 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Yeah, very interesting fish. I agree that it reminds me very much of a Green River Formation fish but the matrix seems wrong for GRF--doesn't even look like the more grayish 18" layer matrix. Possibly @sseth might be able to weigh in on this as he's seem more than his share of Green River fishes. 11 minutes ago, SueBSouth said: Any help appreciated - especially just to know if I was an impulsive idiot to bid on this! Any fossil that impressed you enough to bid on is by definition a fossil you'll be happy with. Even if it turns out to be one of the more common species from Green River that will never diminish the affection you have for a piece. There is objective valuation and there are fossils that appeal to you--they don't necessarily have to align. Cheers. -Ken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 32 minutes ago, digit said: matrix seems wrong for GRF Ken, I agree it (matrix) does not appear typical, but I am guessing that both sides of that slab have experienced some weathering. Perhaps that is providing the uncommon look to the piece. We are used to seeing split-fish "fresh." I'm thinking this one might have been enjoying the sunshine and other natural elements for a span. @SueBSouth You are no idiot, it is a thing of wonder. It is not "rare" (relatively) or valuable (like a diamond); but it is certainly a natural marvel, worth owning. That fish was happily swimming 60 million years ago. 4 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The reverse of the matrix is consistent with the lithology of the GRF "Farson" fish localitiy. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 38 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said: Not sure from where though, as it doesn't look like typical Wyoming matrix. The typical look is Fossil Lake. Lake Gosiute was a different breed of cat. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 This is a Lake Gosiute fish from the Green River Fm. That's why the rock looks different. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Grande's seminal work addressing the Green River fish reports a maximum size for Gosiutichthus parvis of 2 3/4". "Specimens over 50 mm (2 inches) are very rare." This raises the issue - is the posted critter a small Knightia? There's not enough there for a diagnostic ray count or other scrutiny, so the ID will remain hazy as to the species and collection locale. I have a tiny Gosi that is preserved in fine grained, cream-colored matrix just like its Knightia cousins from the other famous site. I think the specimen is best described as a weathered Green River Formation fish. @SueBSouth The quibble over locale and ID in no way detracts from the wonder of your piece. Enjoy. 3 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueBSouth Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 Oh I just love y'all! THANK YOU first of all for your affirmation in my impulsive acquisition! Y'all are very kind! And @Fossildude19, I found a nice home for him - in the proper orientation, thank you! So, do I consider him a Gosiutichthus parvis for now? and this Green River is/was in Wyoming? 60 million years ago! Wow!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Sue, What is the measurement of the fish? Size is an important determining aspect of ID. By body shape alone, I'm pretty confident that this is a Gosiutichthys. But measurements would help to confirm. Compared to my 2" Knightia eocaena. 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said: Compared to my 2" Knightia eocaena. The depth of the opercular forming a smooth curve anteriorly would set it apart from Knighta alta. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Fossildude19 said: Size is an important determining aspect of ID. Yes, that's one thing that caught my attention. The original post says 3 inches. 1 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 In a small brook a 6" trout is a big fish. In a beaver bog built on that brook a one pound trout is a big fish. In the lake that the brook runs into 5 pounds is big for the same species of trout. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueBSouth Posted February 25, 2019 Author Share Posted February 25, 2019 Oh my dear my Fossil Friends, my bad, in not being more diligent in the information given! I was surprised to see when measured how inaccurate I was! Apologies! My scientific side has been softened over the years -I should have supplied this from the get-go! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Ah, all is forgiven. Am I right in thinking this would make it a Knightia then (too large for a Gosiutichthys)? Cheers. -Ken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, digit said: Am I right in thinking this would make it a Knightia then (too large for a Gosiutichthys)? Yes, this is the most reasonable conclusion. 1 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 5 hours ago, snolly50 said: Yes, this is the most reasonable conclusion. What has changed about the growth pattern of fishes since that time that allows the pattern that I experience in my lifetime, but forbids it back then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Well, with that size, I can only surmise that this is a Knightia alta, rather than a Knigthia eocaena or Gosilutichthys parvus. Thank you for providing the measurements. image from HERE. 2 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 On 2/24/2019 at 3:07 AM, Rockwood said: In a small brook a 6" trout is a big fish. In a beaver bog built on that brook a one pound trout is a big fish. In the lake that the brook runs into 5 pounds is big for the same species of trout. I hope I'm not going down the wrong path, but I infer your last comment refers to the phenomenon you earlier posited. I would speculate that fish in the wild move to environments where optimal conditions (for their size) exist. That is, a young 6" fish might find adequate food in a small stream; but this larger kin might require more expansive hunting/grazing grounds. So, for the fisherman's experience the heuristic that pool equals size may inform belief. I think (and am subject to correction) that size of a living creature is genetically determined and environment only holds sway in the case of toxicity or want. A tiger cub unfortunately confined to a small cage still becomes tiger sized. An elephant raised in captivity in confines far smaller than the African expanse still becomes elephantine. Nonetheless, in confines or freedom; while a mature animal does represent robust size - none become giants. There appears to be a natural genetically determined "size" for creatures, great and small. In aquarium hobby lore the phenomenon of fish "growing to their tank" is well established. I suspect that fish who remain smaller than expected have been kept in less than ideal (i.e. toxic) environments. Many an aquarium owner has purchased a cute 3" plecostomus for their 20 galleon community tank only to end up with a sucker mouthed, 15" monster. I believe, when toxins and inadequate nutrition are discounted, tank size determining fish size is a myth. Given the observed "maximum size" of Gosiutichthus, I find it reasonable to conclude that a creature of significantly larger size is not Gosiuticthus . 4 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Sound argument, especially given the uncertainties inherent to the post. I still don't like the idea of identifications based on size in this sort of situation in general though. There are too many parameters that need to be determined, and too many opportunities to make assumptions. If lake Gosiutie was nutrient starved and overpopulated most of the time, but a one hundred year event caused a good year for a few it could actually be the only normally developed adult known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelivingdead531 Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 On 2/23/2019 at 2:01 PM, snolly50 said: Grande's seminal work addressing the Green River fish reports a maximum size for Gosiutichthus parvis of 2 3/4". "Specimens over 50 mm (2 inches) are very rare." This raises the issue - is the posted critter a small Knightia? There's not enough there for a diagnostic ray count or other scrutiny, so the ID will remain hazy as to the species and collection locale. I have a tiny Gosi that is preserved in fine grained, cream-colored matrix just like its Knightia cousins from the other famous site. I think the specimen is best described as a weathered Green River Formation fish. This may be a silly question, but what are the ways to tell the two species apart? I have a mass mortality plate that was listed as Gosiutichthys parvus and from Lake Gosiute. Several of the fish on the plate are 3 1/2”. If they really are Knightia then I would like to know so I can correct my information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 2 hours ago, thelivingdead531 said: what are the ways to tell the two species apart? This is an excellent question as your specimen seems to belie some assertions of the discussion above. Fortunately, since your piece is in hand, you can do the diagnostic scrutiny. But first the tool that you (and anyone interested in Green River fish) require. It's FREE! A miracle of the Internet age! Here is a link to download Grande's wonderful book. sales.wsgs.wyo.gov/paleontology-of-the-green-river-formation-with-a-review-of-the-fish-fauna-2d-ed-1984/ Edit: sorry see below. Here is a scan I made of a relevant page. There is much more info in the text proper, detailing the characteristics of each species. Sorry about the quality, I was in a hurry. Please post your findings here. I do think it will be interesting. I too have a mortality plate covered in tiny fish. On the reverse of that plate are several decent sized Knightia. It is similar to your piece except the small fish are very small. I will try and post it later. Good luck, have fun. 2 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 http://sales.wsgs.wyo.gov/paleontology-of-the-green-river-formation-with-a-review-of-the-fish-fauna-2d-ed-1984/ Here is a link that works! 3 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelivingdead531 Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Outstanding @snolly50! Thank you very much. I will be looking over this and my fish this afternoon. I will definitely post what I’ve found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now