Scylla Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 "'The sale of all fossils is inappropriate,' says Catherine Badgley, former president of the SVP, which represents more than 2,200 international palaeontologists" Really? Well then let's close all the phosphate mines, coal mines, and limestone and marble quarries ASAP! https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/dinosaur-fossils-collectors-museums-price-sale 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Aye, but this from the article to give the statement context: "Badgley’s message to collectors, then, is simple: collect by all means but steer clear of unique specimens." 1 ...How to Philosophize with a Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinoguy89 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, Scylla said: "'The sale of all fossils is inappropriate,' says Catherine Badgley, former president of the SVP, which represents more than 2,200 international palaeontologists" Really? Well then let's close all the phosphate mines, coal mines, and limestone and marble quarries ASAP! https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/dinosaur-fossils-collectors-museums-price-sale Interesting article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, Kane said: Aye, but this from the article to give the statement context: "Badgley’s message to collectors, then, is simple: collect by all means but steer clear of unique specimens." Collect but don't buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, Scylla said: Collect but don't buy? Buying is technically a form of collecting. ...How to Philosophize with a Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyBoy Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Museums want unique specimens on the cheap. How do you think that sits with diggers that spend lots of time, money and risk excavating and preparing these specimens. They should get market value otherwise why do it. Oh then there will be little found and sold then they wont complain about valuation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocene_Mason Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I think the problem here is that museums are not well funded enough, which is an issue society should be addressing. 2 “...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin Happy hunting, Mason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 53 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said: I think the problem here is that museums are not well funded enough, which is an issue society should be addressing. Unfortunately, I don't think the museums will ever be funded enough. Remember that the Field Museum was only able to purchase Sue the T. Rex because McDonald's Corporation helped pay for it. 2 hours ago, Scylla said: "'The sale of all fossils is inappropriate,' says Catherine Badgley, former president of the SVP, which represents more than 2,200 international palaeontologists" Really? Well then let's close all the phosphate mines, coal mines, and limestone and marble quarries ASAP! https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/dinosaur-fossils-collectors-museums-price-sale The article's so-called "unscrupulous people" drive the excavation of fossils. Their fascination with long-gone species is why anybody digs for fossils. It is only because people are willing to spend big bucks on fossils that anything is being dug out. Fossils are constantly being lost to erosion. If only museums could collect unique fossils, many specimens would never be found. To say that "the sale of all fossils is inappropriate" is incredibly naive. The sad truth is that fossils are just dead rocks. Most governments/museums can't justify funding their excavation and study. Private collectors save fossils from being lost forever. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinoguy89 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, Praefectus said: Unfortunately, I don't think the museums will ever be funded enough. Remember that the Field Museum was only able to purchase Sue the T. Rex because McDonald's Corporation helped pay for it. The article's so-called "unscrupulous people" drive the excavation of fossils. Their fascination with long-gone species is why anybody digs for fossils. It is only because people are willing to spend big bucks on fossils that anything is being dug out. Fossils are constantly being lost to erosion. If only museums could collect unique fossils, many specimens would never be found. To say that "the sale of all fossils is inappropriate" is incredibly naive. The sad truth is that fossils are just dead rocks. Most governments/museums can't justify funding their excavation and study. Private collectors save fossils from being lost forever. This is pretty spot on to be honest. Most dinosaur specialists rely on funding from other sources for most of their digs. If it wasn't for the thousands of people collecting fossils it makes you wonder what state we would be in, both for a knowledge point of view and business. Supply and demand is the reason these fossils are being hailed out the ground! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I like George Winters response on FB...well said 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I'm firmly convinced they have their heads in the sand especially with it comes to considering new technology From D Evans twitter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David in Japan Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I don't know what to think about that. Money is what makes the thing run. If you don't have money, you can't fund your research and your excavation. If you can't excavate fossils, and then rely on buying fossils instead, then you need money and as museums are short on money. Fossils being such expensive can be frustrating for museums and researchers. However museums can't expect private collectors to provide for free what would be too expensive for them to do. I often feel a lot of disdain from the scientific community towards amateur/private collectors. It makes me sad as an amateur paleontologist working for a museum (it is just my personal point of view). 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~〇~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Warmest greetings from Kumamoto、 Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamptonsDoc Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 This article made me angry for so many reasons... The comments under the article's posting on various facebook pages are even worse. Some people really are clueless. There are countless fossils eroding away to oblivion over hundreds of millions of acres of government land in the US simply because only a few "academics" have permits to access to them. Open up public land to amateurs and the economic growth and public interest will grow over time and add new generations of paleontologists who will add to the scientific community. How do you get a kid interested in dinosaurs? Let him dig up his first tooth or purchase one at a gem and mineral show and he's hooked for life. Fossils are not rare, they are just not always easily accessible. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead9 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 1 hour ago, HamptonsDoc said: This article made me angry for so many reasons... The comments under the article's posting on various facebook pages are even worse. Some people really are clueless. There are countless fossils eroding away to oblivion over hundreds of millions of acres of government land in the US simply because only a few "academics" have permits to access to them. Open up public land to amateurs and the economic growth and public interest will grow over time and add new generations of paleontologists who will add to the scientific community. How do you get a kid interested in dinosaurs? Let him dig up his first tooth or purchase one at a gem and mineral show and he's hooked for life. Fossils are not rare, they are just not always easily accessible. I completely agree. The amount of scientifically important fossils that “disappear forever” into private collections are a drop in the bucket compared to the amount that are truly gone forever due to lack of funding and manpower to save them from weathering away into oblivion on public lands. Most private collectors I know are happy and proud to have their fossils studied by academics. 1 Still Life Fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 I think that some professional paleontologists show enormous disrespect for amateurs with their characterization of who we are and our motivations. They also exhibit extreme intellectual lazyness with comments like "all fossil sales should be banned". Fortunately I think those are the minority. I have collected at rock quarries where beautiful fossils are literally crushed to gravel to pave roadbeds. Phosphate mines, kitty litter mines, cement factories etc. destroy in a week more than all of TFF could find in a decade. Erosion does degrade and destroy fossils at a rate that prevents us from salvaging all of them, but if professional paleontologists were charged with the job of finding them in time, they could never discover 1/10 of 1% in time. They also would never be able to write their grants, papers, or teach classes. Plus where are the grad students that populate their labs going to come from if interest is not generated in youngsters? Sure some kids get hooked on fossils from books or TV or museum displays, but just watch a 9 year old find his own Paleocene shark tooth (like I did last Saturday) and you'll see how effective a teaching and motivating tool collecting is. All the professional paleontologists I have met encourage amateurs and appreciate our interest. Those that do not do a disservice to their own profession and to all of our community as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olorotitan Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 I would argue that the tastes of the high end market and professional scientists do not always directly oppose each other. The high end market sees "name brand" dinos such as T. rex or Triceratops fetch high prices. I would postulate that for many cases, scientifically valuable pieces aren't as cost prohibitive for scientists simply because they are rare and unknown to most of the amateur market. The human drive to say "mine" to something rare or precious goes back to the start of our history, it's probably encoded in our DNA to behave so. Why try to fight the private market when we all know tighter regulation may result in even deeper illicit markets? The perception of rarity is widely variable to context. If laws were more open on private fossil collecting, that could pave the way to greater education, understanding, and respect for the fossil heritage. I think education of the public is the key here. If everyone is on the same page on how valuable fossils are to understanding the past and to a great extent our very own selves, I would imagine more private collectors would be open to lending a specimen to a institution of research. I think academics could learn much by re-examining the fossil trade as a form of educational outreach. Fossils and the processes of finding them can be a great motivational spark for the next generation. On the other hand, I can understand why academics decry private excavation. There is a loss of contextual data when bones are dug out as quickly and efficiently as possible. Depending on the specimen, there could be numerous trace fossils and environmental clues that can place the specimen in a tighter strata and thereby extract a more confident placement in time, quite important to know evolutionary or cladistic trends. I've heard of some amazing fossil finds that aren't as useful for science due to unskilled or negligent excavation. Then there are outfits that vandalize the land, leaving trash or broken bones (probably not in the western world but in developing nations). I do agree education can be a two way street. I think the situation could be very improved if commercial excavation teams recorded some of the contextual data as well. There's no easy answer to all this, but I hold on to my first argument that education is key in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Nice to see NHM London discussing this subject. I pose the question are we "reasearchers" better or worst than not having access to a unique specimen because we do not have the perfect condition to manage it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimin013 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Troodon said: Nice to see NHM London discussing this subject. I pose the question are we better or worst than not having access to a unique specimen because we do not have the perfect condition to manage it. Interesting, thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyBoy Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Frank Garcia's comments on FB in response to George Winters post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now