Lycopsid 'bark' pattern - gurus needed

[Kato]

Hello, this specimen is from an excursion in search of permineralized material in the upper formations of the lower Pennsylvanian Gobbler formation. In this particular formation I have found Psaronius and various Lycopsids, calamites&piths, etc. 

 

This is fairly weathered specimen in quartz sandstone, but the diamond pattern does not seem typical of Lepidodendron. 

 

Each 'diamond' seems more like a square.

 

There appear to be 2 separate layers of diamond shaped material so these might be smaller branches toward the crown of a Lycopsid. The upper one is more complete in appearance. The lower one seems to have an additional overlay of material.

 

Dimension of the upper one is 25 mm wide and 125mm long approx.

 

Suggestions are most welcome.

[Kato]

This is more of a big picture view with various other plants showing.

 

[Zenmaster6]

Are diamonds not just squares tilted sideways? 
I am not the guru you are looking for....

[Zenmaster6]

BTW
Lepidodendron Obovatum can have more square scales  
while

lepidodendron rimosum can have more "rhombus" shape

I would say its safe to say it is a Scale Tree, if that's what you were questioning. Which species, I don't know.
I've been looking online for a chart to help identify this but there isn't a lot of information on Scale fern ID.

I found this chart which may be of "some" use but I can't find the key that goes with it. Bummer.

[JohnJ]

Please remember that requests to buy or sell are restricted to the Sales forum, only.  Thanks.   

[Rockwood]

A wise man once posted the names of the underlying layers of cortex. 

I don't think this one is preserved well enough to name though.

[Kato]

5 hours ago, Rockwood said:

A wise man once posted the names of the underlying layers of cortex. 

I don't think this one is preserved well enough to name though.

Gack, you got me!  Well, my descriptive need was surely lacking. I'm getting closer to finding that elusive 'well preserved' one and would guess this is the Aspidiaria form of the Lepi cortex and I should have written that.

 

My thought was the diamonds were not elongated vertically as typically seen and thus was after some direction to search for a species type or consideration they might be upper branches which might skew the pattern.

 

As mentioned these 'diamonds' are more square in shape or even slightly elongated horizontally sideways and I was hopeful that might narrow the species down.

[Kato]

10 hours ago, Zenmaster6 said:

BTW
Lepidodendron Obovatum can have more square scales  
while

lepidodendron rimosum can have more "rhombus" shape

I would say its safe to say it is a Scale Tree, if that's what you were questioning. Which species, I don't know.
I've been looking online for a chart to help identify this but there isn't a lot of information on Scale fern ID.

I found this chart which may be of "some" use but I can't find the key that goes with it. Bummer.

Thank you for the visual chart. I had not found that link. Would you kindly provide it if it is not inconvenient?

 

I'll look to see if I can find more info on Obovatum.

[Kato]

9 hours ago, JohnJ said:

Please remember that requests to buy or sell are restricted to the Sales forum, only.  Thanks.   

? Hi, JohnJ. I re-read all the posts here and did not see anything suggestive of buying or selling.

[Kato]

12 minutes ago, Kato said:

Thank you for the visual chart. I had not found that link. Would you kindly provide it if it is not inconvenient?

 

I'll look to see if I can find more info on Obovatum.

I did find this link that has written descriptions of many plant types including Lepidodendron species with occasional links to sketches

 

https://whttps://www.georgesbasement.com/LesquereuxVolIII/BotanicalNames-Vols-I-II-III.htm

 

[Yoda]

35 minutes ago, Kato said:

I did find this link that has written descriptions of many plant types including Lepidodendron species with occasional links to sketches

 

https://whttps://www.georgesbasement.com/LesquereuxVolIII/BotanicalNames-Vols-I-II-III.htm

 

This is an excellent resource. 

 

Mods, is there somewhere this can be stickied for future reference? 

[Fossildude19]

59 minutes ago, Kato said:

? Hi, JohnJ. I re-read all the posts here and did not see anything suggestive of buying or selling.

Offending remark was edited out.  

[Fossildude19]

17 minutes ago, Yoda said:

This is an excellent resource. 

 

Mods, is there somewhere this can be stickied for future reference? 

Well, it has been posted here many times. 

I usually just bookmark links like these to my web browser.

The issue with this resource is that it is very old, and no longer accurate or correct in many of the ID's it makes.   
Not sure we should pin something that out of date. 

It can certainly be posted under Fossils on the Web subforum. 

I would suggest posting as many tags as are relevant, so that it comes up easily in a Forum Search.  

 

 "carboniferous fossil plants".  "resource for ID" "ID fossil plants"  "carboniferous",  "pennsylvanian", "mississippian"

[Kato]

5 hours ago, Rockwood said:

A wise man once posted the names of the underlying layers of cortex. 

I don't think this one is preserved well enough to name though.

My thought was it might be a stronger possibility of Lepidophloios due to the remaining bark patterning. As you suggested, it is worn enough there is not enough indication of a leaf base to assist in the determination.

[Fossildude19]

I'm surprised no one has tagged the plant specialists. 

 

 

@paleoflor @fiddlehead @Plantguy 

 

I would also suggest searching forum member RomanK' s content. 

He is no longer very active, but has posted many great topics on carboniferous plants. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Fossildude19
To add links

[Fossildude19]

11 hours ago, Zenmaster6 said:

I found this chart which may be of "some" use but I can't find the key that goes with it. Bummer.

 

It is part of the website posted above. 

Volume 1 can be downloaded HERE.

[Kato]

8 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

It is part of the website posted above. 

One of the difficulties of that website is getting to the photo plates easily. I did download the latest versions in a pdf form which is helpful but there is a LOT of info there and it is sometimes difficult to locate things easily. Not all plants have photo plates either.

[paleoflor]

What do you make of this one @ziepe? Lycopods are your thing... I find this a difficult one, given the preservation state... Have you ever seen a really weathered out Sigillaria from the Favularia section, or S. brardii perhaps? Latter does not seem to fit with the age, though (different ranges for American localities, perhaps?). The specimen does not directly fit Knorria, but it could also be some other decortication state of Lepidodendron I'm unfamiliar with.

[Kato]

31 minutes ago, paleoflor said:

What do you make of this one @ziepe? Lycopods are your thing... I find this a difficult one, given the preservation state... Have you ever seen a really weathered out Sigillaria from the Favularia section, or S. brardii perhaps? Latter does not seem to fit with the age, though (different ranges for American localities, perhaps?). The specimen does not directly fit Knorria, but it could also be some other decortication state of Lepidodendron I'm unfamiliar with.

I don't know if this will help. Just guess work on my behalf.

 

Decortication state = Aspidiaria

Specimen = Lepidophloios

 

Here is another photo with measurements of pattern = 3mm tall x 7mm wide

 

[Zenmaster6]

9 hours ago, Kato said:

? Hi, JohnJ. I re-read all the posts here and did not see anything suggestive of buying or selling.

I was asking about something sales related. I'm not sure if its okay to private message about that though. I was similarly contacted via a post though.

[Kato]

After much digging around I did find this photo

 

[JohnJ]

4 hours ago, Zenmaster6 said:

I was asking about something sales related. I'm not sure if its okay to private message about that though. I was similarly contacted via a post though.

Making those inquiries via PM is perfectly acceptable.    Let us know via PM, if the staff doesn't notice the posting of sales inquiries outside the Sales forum. Thanks. 

 

[Zenmaster6]

5 hours ago, JohnJ said:

Making those inquiries via PM is perfectly acceptable.    Let us know via PM, if the staff doesn't notice the posting of sales inquiries outside the Sales forum. Thanks. 

 

Thanks for the Info. Sorry about the misunderstanding 

[Yoda]

20 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

Well, it has been posted here many times. 

I usually just bookmark links like these to my web browser.

The issue with this resource is that it is very old, and no longer accurate or correct in many of the ID's it makes.   
Not sure we should pin something that out of date. 

It can certainly be posted under Fossils on the Web subforum. 

I would suggest posting as many tags as are relevant, so that it comes up easily in a Forum Search.  

 

 "carboniferous fossil plants".  "resource for ID" "ID fossil plants"  "carboniferous",  "pennsylvanian", "mississippian"

I am on my work computer. 

Can't book mark unfortunately. 

 

OK, will do

[paleoflor]

On 05/03/2019 at 10:45 PM, Kato said:

Here is another photo with measurements of pattern = 3mm tall x 7mm wide

Given those dimensions (find this difficult to see on the initial photos), Lepidophloios is definitely a good candidate. Funnily enough, according to Crookall (1966) Sigillaria brardii and other species from the Clathraria section of Sigillaria do "approach those referred to Lepidophloios" (p. 357). The reference images you found "in George's basement" further support the Lepidophloios option. It will be difficult to obtain absolute certainty, though, as you would ideally make use of a combination of the leaf cushions and leaf scars to ID lycophyte remains. Leaf scars of Lepidodendron, for example, occur on the upper half of vertically elongated leaf cushions, which may be raised or projecting, but are never bulging or downturned. By contrast, Lepidophloios leaf scars are situated at the lower end of bulging or downturned leaf cushions. Given the decorticated state of your specimen, such diagnostic leaf scar features are lacking, unfortunately.

 

On the decortication states of Lepidodendron, Crookall (1964) writes the following (p. 232): "Before their nature was ascertained, imperfectly preserved stems of Lepidodendron were assigned to the so-called 'genera' Bergeria Sternberg, Aspidaria Stur and Knorria Sternberg. In Bergeria the epidermis and sub-epidermal layers were lost before fossilization; the leaf scars are not exhibited on the fossil, though the areas of the leaf-cushions may, or may not, be indicated. Aspidaria represents the inner surface of the cylinder of outer bark. Knorria bears markings due to the tissues of the middle cortex; the characteristic peg-like ridges were formed by sediment which filled up pockets that were left by the decay of the soft tissue which ensheathed each leaf-trace. All possible transitions may be found between these various imperfect states of preservation of Lepidodendron stems." No equivelent legacy 'genera' seem to exist for Sigillaria or Lepidophloios.