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Ammonite: real or fake?


LauraGalicia

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Hello! I'm a lover of Ammonites, in particular I adore the ones with the preserved iridescent layer of the mother of pearl. Because I don't have the knowledge and preparation of a professional, I would like to know if this specimen I recently bought is a real one or it is fake, apart from the carving/polishing work it has. Thank you so much! 

 

20190306_192911.jpg

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That's an interesting piece. There are actually two ammonites there, facing in opposite directions. Looks a little like the smaller one was stuck on there with paleobond, or some putty that was used to fill in holes before polishing. Other can tell you possible species. Look like they're from Madagascar to me.

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Jay A. Wollin

Lead Fossil Educator - Penn Dixie Fossil Park and Nature Reserve

Hamburg, New York, USA

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I'll let another picture of the other side where you can see the carving. Thank you so much, as an amateur I really appreciate your help!

20190306_192305.jpg

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I realize that didn't really answer your initial question, which is yes, they are both real. Still not sure which species, as I'm not a big ammonite guy, but they're nice looking for sure. I would put them in my display cases!

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Jay A. Wollin

Lead Fossil Educator - Penn Dixie Fossil Park and Nature Reserve

Hamburg, New York, USA

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Looks real enough for me, I doubt anyone would bother to fake Madagascar ammonites as they are extremely common. :) 
Also the ammonite is probably a Cleoniceras sp. (Albian, Cretaceous)

Beautifull piece and quite a big one too! 

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Interested in all things paleontology, geology, zoology, evolution, natural history and science!
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They almost always polish or cut the ammonites in Madagascar in order to be able to export and sell them as "works of art". It is forbidden there to export artifacts and fossils, so this is how they get around that.

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The smaller ammonite appears to be in it's natural position, I don't think it was added there. For clarity, the only bit that is carved is the 'opening' of the shell.

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1 hour ago, Aurelius said:

The smaller ammonite appears to be in it's natural position, I don't think it was added there. For clarity, the only bit that is carved is the 'opening' of the shell.

Correct. It looks like the natural rock holding the little guy on there.

If you look closely, you can see where the cutting wheel slices across the big one when they were cutting the opening flush on the smaller one.

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Devoniandigger is right on the money.  Ive seen many thousands of these.  To me its very obvious that they glued on a smaller one to hide some damage or something. 

 

RB

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20 hours ago, DevonianDigger said:

Looks a little like the smaller one was stuck on there with paleobond, or some putty that was used to fill in holes before polishing.

 

13 hours ago, Aurelius said:

The smaller ammonite appears to be in it's natural position, I don't think it was added there.

 

12 hours ago, caldigger said:

It looks like the natural rock holding the little guy on there.

 

1 hour ago, RJB said:

To me its very obvious that they glued on a smaller one to hide some damage or something.

 

Ok, thats 2:2 ;)

 

12 hours ago, caldigger said:

If you look closely, you can see where the cutting wheel slices across the big one when they were cutting the opening flush on the smaller one.

There are many grooves around the smaller ammo, but, yes, that one is the most prominent. But where do all the other grooves come from? From some prepping before or after the little ammo was put in place? Maybe be they cut the opening flush after the little ammo was placed, simply to remove the mess they created?

But I don´t know, just speculation :)
Franz Bernhard

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I still can't see that it's been placed. You can see the matrix between the ammonites, and it's certainly the correct matrix. These are often found attached to one another.

 

Better pictures may clear it up - in the hand it should be fairly obvious. It's not such a spectacularly valuable ammonite that I can imagine they'd bother trying to cover up damage, unless it was especially grievous, since the other side displays fine.

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2 hours ago, Aurelius said:

These are often found attached to one another.

 

 

3 hours ago, RJB said:

Ive seen many thousands of these. 

Very interesting! 

Ok, there are many specimens of this kind on the marked. But "why"? Naturally or glued? That´s the question, a very, very interesting question. 

Franz Bernhard

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3 minutes ago, FranzBernhard said:

 

Very interesting! 

Ok, there are many specimens of this kind on the marked. But "why"? Naturally or glued? That´s the question, a very, very interesting question. 

Franz Bernhard

 

This is a typical example of these Madagascar ammonites in natural matrix. This specimen sold through a large auction gallery for big money. But the matrix is essentially the same - grey with lots of white shells running through it.

 

2018_CKS_16452_0083_000(an_ammonite_group_madagascar).thumb.jpg.6e88392ec10d245ed56b3dd6b038c790.jpg

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Thanks, @Aurelius!

 

Ok, this is a natural matrix specimen with polished up ammos and the topmost ammo is at least reattached (I think).

But none of these ammos has a small one in the middle... ;).

 

I can imagine, that they could leave some matrix in the center of the large ammo, then gluing a small ammo there. Why bothering to remove matrix, when I glue another ammo there?

Franz Bernhard

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I think these ammonites belong to the common Albian Madagascar species generally known as Cleoniceras besairiei Collignon, 1949.  

Anyone who has specimens of this species should note that they have been reassigned to the closely related genus Aioloceras (see Kennedy & Klinger 2012), so the species is more correctly Aioloceras besairiei (Collignon, 1949).

 

Don

 

 

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On 7.3.2019 at 6:49 PM, FranzBernhard said:

 

 

Ok, there are many specimens of this kind on the marked. But "why"? Naturally or glued? That´s the question, a very, very interesting question. 

 

As judging of my experience with such displays (moroccan or russian) is that a remarkable amount is glued together to make it more attractive for the buyer. Other pieces hiding restaurations or missing pieces.

 

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