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The Case for Nanotyrannus


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I saw Pete post that, I was just as convinced just looking at the teeth and comparing serrations... Incredible wealth of information here that should destroy any rebuttals, but I have yet to meet someone who believed that Nanotyrannus was a juvenile Trex.

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"Life is too complex for me to wrap my mind around, that's why I have fossils and not pets!":tff:

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23 minutes ago, Mioplosus_Lover24 said:

I saw Pete post that, I was just as convinced just looking at the teeth and comparing serrations... Incredible wealth of information here that should destroy any rebuttals, but I have yet to meet someone who believed that Nanotyrannus was a juvenile Trex.

I agree, most people I speak to agree its valid unfortunately it does not help to sway the sentiment mass media/key influencers have presented. A lot of is pretty obvious but not officially published so it's just not considered, the ostrich syndrome.

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2 hours ago, Ptychodus04 said:

...This situation appears to be a case of certain big name scientists unwilling to say they were wrong and refusing to consider all the data...

 

 

This argument doesn't comport with the facts.  There are no big name scientists refusing to consider all the data.  The talking point of 'Privately Held' specimens has really become a convenient and empty promise of miraculous results that prove once and for all the validity of Nanotyrannus.  Privately held specimens prove nothing unless they can be tested by the rigors of science.  The actual scientific results have no bias for any particular outcome.  With histological testing as the current benchmark methodology, the discovery of an adult nano would then be a slam dunk, the silver bullet that is required in this case.  It seems to be a relatively straightforward proposition for Pete Larson and all the proponents of Nanotyrannus: out of these numerous privately held specimens, simply produce one histological thin section that shows Nanotyrannus as an adult.  Until then and in light of the new evidence published by Woodward et al. 2020, it strains the most basic logic to believe in a scenario in which only T. rex adults and only juvenile Nanos existed.  Parsimony (Occam's razor) favors them being synonymous.

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15 minutes ago, piranha said:

 

 

This argument doesn't comport with the facts.  There are no big name scientists refusing to consider all the data.  The talking point of 'Privately Held' specimens has really become a convenient and empty promise of miraculous results that prove once and for all the validity of Nanotyrannus.  Privately held specimens prove nothing unless they can be tested by the rigors of science.  The actual scientific results have no bias for any particular outcome.  With histological testing as the current benchmark methodology, the discovery of an adult nano would then be a slam dunk, the silver bullet that is required in this case.  It seems to be a relatively straightforward proposition for Pete Larson and all the proponents of Nanotyrannus: out of these numerous privately held specimens, simply produce one histological thin section that shows Nanotyrannus as an adult.  Until then and in light of the new evidence published by Woodward et al. 2020, it strains the most basic logic to believe in a scenario in which only T. rex adults and only juvenile Nanos existed.  Parsimony (Occam's razor) favors them being synonymous.

 

I was just making an observation not an argument. :D I agree that scientific results have no bias but scientists definitely do. If not, confirmation bias wouldn't be a thing. Human ego tends to get in the way of unbiased thought so strongly that we don't even realize it without conscious thought. I've had the unfortunate privilege to meet some serious egos in paleontology, even to the point of some openly and vocally criticizing my inclusion at a JVP event (because I was just an amateur at the time). Personal bias is very real and very pervasive in historical sciences. I think the real question is do we require a silver bullet, or do the morphological differences justify different taxa?

 

I'm excited to see what comes of this since there is such heated debate (I've said it other places on the forum, I love a good argument). Thankfully, I have no skin in the game. I'd be happy to prep either one regardless of what it's called. :P

 

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16 minutes ago, Ptychodus04 said:

 I think the real question is do we require a silver bullet, or do the morphological differences justify different taxa?

 

 

Morphological differences do not tell the whole story so the answer is self-evident with regard to this debate.  Histology confirms only T. rex adults and only juvenile Nanos.

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Benjamin Burger's last video is about that same subject.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Here are some comparisons with a 4 year old T rex called Baby Bob to Nanotyrannus

 

This juvenile T rex has only 13 tooth positions with typical T rex tooth morphology.  This is similar to the one I show on the first page.   Nano jaws have 17 tooth positions with narrow teeth

 

Babybob1.thumb.JPG.5d67c1bdffd2f42188832166e34491d4.JPG

 

 

More info comes from the tibia and femur. Femur length: 645mm, Tibia length: 650. Compare this to the Nanotyrannus Jane. Femur length: 720mm, Tibia length: 840mm.

Tibia and Fibula are about the same size on this Juvie T rex... Not the case with Nanotyrannus where the Tibia is significantly longer.

 

Babybob2.thumb.JPG.72beee36f5de78366199aab375f08f99.JPG

 

The first dentary tooth of the juvie T rex is an incisoform (both carinae face the rear)  there are none on the lower dentary of Nanotyrannus

  

Babybob3.thumb.JPG.7bb80f280f216cb835965b92ff663d05.JPG

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I have been quite convinced by this thread.

Until now, I tended to lean towards the juvenile T-Rex interpretation.

A change in teeth-count and limb proportions during ontogeny is something one can very well imagine, it does happen even in humans after all, and most mammals tend to be much more conservative in their tooth replacement.

I was not aware of the specimens you presented here. As much as I can imagine a morphological change during ontogeny, if there are small specimens with T-Rex morphology that is quite an argument. (or they are the adults of yet to be found "Picotyrannus")

The overall topic of dinosaur ontogeny sounds very interesting to me, I did search the forum but did not find much.

Best Regards,

J

Try to learn something about everything and everything about something

Thomas Henry Huxley

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1 hour ago, Mahnmut said:

I have been quite convinced by this thread.

Until now, I tended to lean towards the juvenile T-Rex interpretation.

A change in teeth-count and limb proportions during ontogeny is something one can very well imagine, it does happen even in humans after all, and most mammals tend to be much more conservative in their tooth replacement.

I was not aware of the specimens you presented here. As much as I can imagine a morphological change during ontogeny, if there are small specimens with T-Rex morphology that is quite an argument. (or they are the adults of yet to be found "Picotyrannus")

The overall topic of dinosaur ontogeny sounds very interesting to me, I did search the forum but did not find much.

Best Regards,

J

Appreciate your feedback.   I believe everyone needs to make their own call on this debate all I wanted to do is present all the facts to make a more informed decision.

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On 1/5/2020 at 2:31 AM, -Andy- said:

Do we have a list of all young confirmed T. rex? This is what I have at the moment:

 

MOR 6625 "Chomper" - Not sure if T. rex or Nano. Remains are too fragmentary but is potentially the youngest T. rex

 

Baby Bob - Age unknown? But said to be the youngest ever from good remains. Estimated to be 20 feet long

 

Unnamed specimen prepped by Akiko Shinya - Dentary jaw length is 35cm

 

UCRC-PV1 - Sub-adult. No other info available

 

LACM 23845 - 27 feet long

 

Tinker - 30.5 feet long

 

Rocky (housed in Dinosaur Museum Altmühltal) - Subadult. Estimated to be 32.8 feet

 

Bucky - 34 feet long

 

Are my information correct? Also, does anyone have any picture or info of LACM 28741, the Jordan theropod?

 

There is also KUVP 156375 at the University of Kansas. I discovered this specimen on July 25, 2016. 

 

https://www.history.com/news/tyrannosaurs-rex-montana-paleontology-discovery

 

This partial skeleton includes both maxillae (see pic) as well as the illia + partial sacrum, single cervical vertebra, single presacral vertebra, a premax, right postorbital, left jugal, right metatarsal IV and some pedal phalanges as well as other assorted elements. 

 

5e442c0a81877_KUVP156375.thumb.jpg.07420bab964e1b4f3665668d801e3e44.jpg

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On 2/12/2020 at 10:53 AM, KansasFossilHunter said:

does anyone have any picture or info of LACM 28741, the Jordan theropod?

 

Yes, I visited the specimen in 2018. Here are some *unscaled* pictures through the glass display case. 

 

Left lateral view:

Jordan_Theropod_Lateral.thumb.jpg.01c0492e51b614ad6781043312f23903.jpg

 

Dorsal-ish view:

Dorsal_View.thumb.jpg.7a571e434ace78752f0f3ebc4b2e149f.jpg

 

Anterior view:

Front_View.thumb.jpg.e3a86601bf2bdeb81270ce705f606994.jpg

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Also, for purposes of relative size comparison, here is the partial ilium of the " Baby Bob" specimen (in hand) vs KUVP 156375. 

 

KUVP_vs_BB.jpg.98a1082cf3c2b635ba725fa8b7789201.jpg

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Just adding my two cents.

 

Conparison of size and shape between my big rex and big nano. The nano being a lot more slender than the rex as you can see by the cross section

AFCB2CD1-A187-4452-AFD5-CBCF238468E9.jpeg

0CC9C05B-6E17-44E4-B1BA-04E8B13F2821.jpeg

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  • 5 months later...
On 3/12/2019 at 2:25 PM, Troodon said:

Updated 1/17/20

 

I've taken a pretty firm position on the validity of Nanotyrannus ever since I spent some time looking at the Dueling Dinosaurs shortly after they were discovered.   Subsequent to that, new information that I've become aware of just cemented my position.   I'm interested in understanding the "truth" and have no problem looking at all available specimens that are in private hands or museums.   The optics are very clear to me and I have difficulty understanding the debate.  Collectors need to form their own opinion on this but I would like to share with you why I believe its a valid species.  

This is perfect! Thank you! I’d like to visit you sometime.   Thanks so much, Bucky Derflinger 

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1 hour ago, BDREX said:

This is perfect! Thank you! I’d like to visit you sometime. Thanks so much, Bucky Derflinger 

Do you ever go to the Tucson show?  I'll be collecting in SD in Sept staying in Belle Fouche 

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47 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Do you ever go to the Tucson show?  I'll be collecting in SD in Sept staying in Belle Fouche 

I haven’t been able to make it Tucson yet. We have our Bull sales in February and I just can’t get away. Give me a shout when you get out here. I’m about 100 miles from Belle 

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1 minute ago, BDREX said:

I haven’t been able to make it Tucson yet. We have our Bull sales in February and I just can’t get away. Give me a shout when you get out here. I’m about 100 miles from Belle 

It's probably not a good idea to post your phone # on a public Forum.  :unsure:

I've edited it out for you, but  please use the Forum's Personal Messaging system, when sharing personal information.  ;)

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Reminder that my case for Nanotyrannus includes material that is in private hands so we can see the BIG picture and have a more realistic view of the differences.   I was going through some old images and found this juvie dentary of a Trex that is about twice the size of the baby.   Its identical in every way to the baby jaw I showed in my first image on page 1.   There are no morphological differences in these two specimens except size.   Same number of alveoli 13 with a similar oval shape.   It's very different than the Nanotyrannus dentary with 17 alveoli which are rectangular at all stages of growth that I've seen.

 

Juvienile T rex

20150601_121000_001.thumb.jpg.d52dda2b21b8fc442e1c1367c544c5a8.jpg

 

Baby T rex

DYWFxYVVoAA9TXY1.jpg.3915b986ba49f82cc7be92024c92d2a1.jpg

 

Nanotyrannus

DYWFxYVVoAA9TXY.jpg.066af603d65c5c9194c918465d5d27e1.jpg

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Thanks for posting this. Personally im in the nano camp. I believe they are different from a tyranno. Thats one of the reasons i have one of their teeth on my bucket list.

(someday i’ll win an auction for one! LOL!) personally i think ignoring the specimans that are in private hands even though they have been studied is akin to ignoring sharks just becuase its in a river instead of in the ocean….

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For fun I assembled the skull bone scans of the "Zuri" specimen from the SWAU. It's also supposedly a Nanotyrannus. The jaws seem to fit. But interestingly, It does not possess a pneumatophore on the lateral side of the quadratojugal like other "Nanotyrannus" specimens seem to have. I've mirrored some of the elements to get a better picture of the skull. It's quite complete. The skull is just a bit smaller than the Jane skull.

image.png.880893d682d5426ee788dcae767d4805.pngimage.png.d069e6d7506796e49f09c793b878b650.pngimage.png.4bda9b4e9cbd6081f75a6d29eee26b0f.png

 

I also made a 2d skull reconstruction.
Nano_Zuri_skull01.thumb.jpg.44ca9486ed56c161208470320d182691.jpg

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Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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@LordTrilobite Very cool, nice job, interesting to see it together.  So the jaws fit, that's nice to know, thanks for positing it.   Larsen says that the pneumatophore is only seen on skulls of Nanotyrannus but never makes a comment that's in all specimens.  Not sure we have enough specimens to make that call.   I looked at photos I took of the Dueling Dino Skull but it a black skull and could not tell but it was not evident, not a large opening.   Zuri also seems to have a longitudinal groove along center of the lateral surface of the dentary.    Larsen had a new display on this feature on my last BHI visit and indicated its found on dentaries of Alioramus, Gorgosaurus and Acrocanthosaurus but not found on T rex.

 

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15 minutes ago, Troodon said:

@LordTrilobite Very cool, nice job, interesting to see it together.  So the jaws fit, that's nice to know, thanks for positing it.   Larsen says that the pneumatophore is only seen on skulls of Nanotyrannus but never makes a comment that's in all specimens.  Not sure we have enough specimens to make that call.   I looked at photos I took of the Dueling Dino Skull but it a black skull and could not tell but it was not evident, not a large opening.   Zuri also seems to have a longitudinal groove along center of the lateral surface of the dentary.    Larsen had a new display on this feature on my last BHI visit and indicated its found on dentaries of Alioramus, Gorgosaurus and Acrocanthosaurus but not found on T rex.

Yeah everything seems to fit together nicely. And there seems to be only a single theropod individual in the quarry it came from. It seems to have only be mixed in with Edmontosaurus and possibly some ceratopsian scraps. Some bones especially fit together perfectly (specifically the jugal, quadratojugal and quadrates). Although there is quite a bit of deformation in several areas.

The pneumatophore is at least present in both Jane and the Cleveland skull.

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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17 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

Yeah everything seems to fit together nicely. And there seems to be only a single theropod individual in the quarry it came from. It seems to have only be mixed in with Edmontosaurus and possibly some ceratopsian scraps. Some bones especially fit together perfectly (specifically the jugal, quadratojugal and quadrates). Although there is quite a bit of deformation in several areas.

The pneumatophore is at least present in both Jane and the Cleveland skull.

 

nice reconstruction work, thank you.  The maxilla

certainly has the gracile profile and rectangular tooth sockets characteristic of the claimed nanotyrannus specimens.

Edited by hadrosauridae

"There is no shortage of fossils. There is only a shortage of paleontologists to study them." - Larry Martin

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11 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

 

nice reconstruction work, thank you.  The maxilla

certainly has the gracile profile and rectangular tooth sockets characteristic of the claimed nanotyrannus specimens.

Yes, the teeth are very much compressed.

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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Did a quick search.  Here is a dorsal view of the dentary and maxilla.  Like Olof indicated typical of we've described as Nanotyrannus

Screenshot_20211130-150840_Firefox.thumb.jpg.7991d551e7972eaadab6782bbbd8bee0.jpgScreenshot_20211130-151239_Gallery.thumb.jpg.1e2e8fa6e5215e737893e16e0fb0be1c.jpg

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