almach Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 The Chesapeake Group has at least 16 different species of otoliths (from bony fish) that fossilized. I still have at least a thousand otoliths left to sort. So far I only have five different species (I think). I have already searched over a thousand otoliths in material brought back in just four trips to this middle Miocene (Calvert formation) site. Here are pictures of the five. If I find any additional species I will post them. 1. Micromesistius cognatus (a genus of cods) 2. Trisopterus sculptus (a genus of cods) 3. Genyonemus sp. (a croaker) 4. Pogonias sp. (a black drum fish) 5. Sciaenops sp. (a red drum fish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 @MarcoSr Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Nice! @Coco might like these. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Hi, Nice otoliths, but I never dared to determine them. I am more familiar with current otoliths than with fossilized ones. I am interested in any PDF dealing with fossilized otoliths. How do you tell the difference between the first and second pics ? Can you put a photo with one of each species side by side to show the differences ? Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 9 hours ago, Coco said: Hi, Nice otoliths, but I never dared to determine them. I am more familiar with current otoliths than with fossilized ones. I am interested in any PDF dealing with fossilized otoliths. How do you tell the difference between the first and second pics ? Can you put a photo with one of each species side by side to show the differences ? Coco Hi, There is a new book called The Geology and Vertebrate Paleontology of Calvert Cliffs Maryland edited by Dr. Godfrey published in 2018. I think I got the otoliths right, but if you disagree, please let me know. I will send a picture later today or tomorrow, per your request. Here is a link to that book, the otoliths are on page 205. https://opensi.si.edu/index.php/smithsonian/catalog/book/107 Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 On 4/11/2019 at 11:46 PM, almach said: So far I only have five different species (I think). I think you have more than five species. These two are clearly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 I tried comparing these two to a publication I have (Muller 1999). Here’s the closest I found for the two otoliths above. Take this with a grain of salt as I don’t have much experience identifying these. The first is identified as “Sciaenops species 1”, the second as “genus aff. Sciaenops paraeastmani”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Al Dente said: I think you have more than five species. These two are clearly different. I see what you mean. The one on the right is Pogonias sp. I will forward the photo to Dr. Godfrey to see if he knows what the one on the left is. Thank you. Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 13 hours ago, Coco said: Hi, Nice otoliths, but I never dared to determine them. I am more familiar with current otoliths than with fossilized ones. I am interested in any PDF dealing with fossilized otoliths. How do you tell the difference between the first and second pics ? Can you put a photo with one of each species side by side to show the differences ? Coco 3 hours ago, almach said: Hi, There is a new book called The Geology and Vertebrate Paleontology of Calvert Cliffs Maryland edited by Dr. Godfrey published in 2018. I think I got the otoliths right, but if you disagree, please let me know. I will send a picture later today or tomorrow, per your request. Here is a link to that book, the otoliths are on page 205. https://opensi.si.edu/index.php/smithsonian/catalog/book/107 Almach Hi Coco, Here is a photo of two of the otoliths. I believe the upper photo (Proximal side) is Trisopterus and the lower photo is Micromesistius the more streamlined of the two. I understand you are excellent on otoliths, so I could be wrong. Please let me know your thoughts as I am no longer sure. Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 Just now, almach said: Hi Coco, Here is a photo of two of the otoliths. I believe the upper photo (Proximal side) is Trisopterus and the lower photo is Micromesistius the more streamlined of the two. I understand you are excellent on otoliths, so I could be wrong. Please let me know your thoughts as I am no longer sure. Almach Oops, here is the photo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 Hi, As I said earlier, I know more about today’s otoliths than fossils, and I never dared to identify my fossilized otoliths. That said, here is my opinion. On the PDF document, page 205, we see the otoliths of these two species. I notice that both have a "serrated" side. Can you see these indentations on your samples, with a magnifying glass for example ? In your last photo (not quite clean), I get the impression that the one at the top is flatter than the other one, is it ? Can we get a picture of the other side of the two otoliths, and their profile if possible ? In the same order please. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 14, 2019 Author Share Posted April 14, 2019 12 hours ago, Coco said: Hi, As I said earlier, I know more about today’s otoliths than fossils, and I never dared to identify my fossilized otoliths. That said, here is my opinion. On the PDF document, page 205, we see the otoliths of these two species. I notice that both have a "serrated" side. Can you see these indentations on your samples, with a magnifying glass for example ? In your last photo (not quite clean), I get the impression that the one at the top is flatter than the other one, is it ? Can we get a picture of the other side of the two otoliths, and their profile if possible ? In the same order please. Coco Hi Coco, I have rephotographed the proximal surface (photo 1) (I agree, it wasn't very clear). I have photographed the distal surface as well (photo 2) and two profile photos Micromesistius (photo 3) and Trisopterus (photo 4). Hope these help. Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 Sorry, can't say more... On the PDF document, page 205, we see the otoliths of these two species. I notice that both have a "serrated" side. Can you see these indentations on your samples, with a magnifying glass for example ? Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 14, 2019 Author Share Posted April 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Coco said: Sorry, can't say more... On the PDF document, page 205, we see the otoliths of these two species. I notice that both have a "serrated" side. Can you see these indentations on your samples, with a magnifying glass for example ? Coco Yes I see the "serrations" on both of my otoliths on the same side as shown on page 205, but neither is obvious as on page 205. Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Hi, OK, I think they could be these 2 species Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daleksec Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 What rescources are you using for identification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 22 hours ago, Coco said: Hi, OK, I think they could be these 2 species Coco Hi I just signed in, it's 2:50 AM, Tuesday, been busy. If I post about a dozen otoliths that I can't determine, would you like to take a crack at id's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 Hi, There was a new book published by the Smithsonian on the Geology and Vertebrate Paleontology of Calvert Cliffs, Md (late 2018). If you go to the Smithsonian's website you can search for a lot of their fossil publications from other areas as well. I tried to post the link to the PDF file here (that you can download, for free) but it won't work, sorry. Now these otoliths I posted on this thread are from a site near Aquasco, Md. They are the same formation (Calvert) as in this publication. The otoliths are on page 205. Hope this helps! Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 Almach- The otoliths are nice. What else are you finding in the material you are searching through? Also, was size mesh are you screening with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 Hi, Almach, I can try... Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 13 hours ago, Al Dente said: Almach- The otoliths are nice. What else are you finding in the material you are searching through? Also, was size mesh are you screening with? Hello, Only four trips to this site back in 2001-2002. I do not remember what mesh size I used (have several sifter mesh sizes), but I usually used window screen material under my sifter at many sites (including Aquasco). Some of the finds at this site and material brought home: C. Megalodon (one small, one over 2 centimeters) C. hastalis, A. grandis (only one), H, serra, C. Taurus, Carcharhinus species, G. aduncus, Squatina (only one), other small shark teeth, Dasyatis sp., Myliobatis sp., a handful of bony fish teeth, possible small crocodile tooth. Shells include: A. cuneiformis, M. Staminea, C. thallus (tusk shell), D. attenuatum (tusk shell), T. indenta, T. exaltata, T. plebia, C. inaequaus, F. alticosta (Limpet shell (about 50 of these), C. granulate, P. americana, Retusa sp., Chesapectens, S. foremanni, C. costaum, Epitonium sp. E. quadriscostata? (only one), E. Tricostata, and many unidentified shells. Even found some tiger eye (mineral), and over 3,000 otoliths). This is more of a shell site than shark teeth site. Fossils are found at the bottom of a 6 meter ravine (20 ft). Shell preservation is excellent. Site is posted no trespassing, so one must track down the current owner for permission to enter for fossil hunting. Can post some photos if you like. Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Hi, I am interested in shell pics ! Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 17, 2019 Author Share Posted April 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Coco said: Hi, I am interested in shell pics ! Coco Hi, I will send photos of teeth and shells to this thread. I may need some time (a few days). Almacn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 18, 2019 Author Share Posted April 18, 2019 On 4/13/2019 at 4:03 PM, Al Dente said: I tried comparing these two to a publication I have (Muller 1999). Here’s the closest I found for the two otoliths above. Take this with a grain of salt as I don’t have much experience identifying these. The first is identified as “Sciaenops species 1”, the second as “genus aff. Sciaenops paraeastmani”. Hi, I got an answer back from Dr. Godfrey, the editor of the new book. The person who wrote that section says they are both Pogonias sp. I am going to post about a dozen or so otoliths in a few days. Coco is going to try to id them. I would appreciate your feedback as well, if you like. Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almach Posted April 20, 2019 Author Share Posted April 20, 2019 On 4/16/2019 at 7:01 AM, Coco said: Hi, Almach, I can try... Coco Hi Coco Here are some of the otoliths that I am not sure about. You may reference the number below the MM ruler in ID's. Thank you in advance for any help. Almach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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