Fossil Hunting in Santa Monica Mountains RA

[thebluecatapilla]

Hello everyone,

 

I am a little confused about the precise legality of fossil hunting with the Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation area.

 

I have collected fossils here numerous times in the past, and have never had any issues in the past. However, it has recently come to my attention that are now plenty of laws restricting the collecting of fossils. So I have done my research, and that has only resulted in a great deal of confusion.

 

So I have encountered a great number of online webpages that state that fossil hunting along road-cuts is illegal. I have personally done this in the past, specifically along Mullholland highway, and have never had any issues. I am aware that fossil hunting along the road is a safety issue, and can contribute to rock slides. But what about collecting along hiking trails? 

 

When I read the official law code in Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area, I did not encounter any prohibitions about collecting fossils with the park boundaries. But perhaps I did not encounter the correct clause.  

 

Does anyone have any input/advice? Thank you in advance. 

 

 

[FossilDAWG]

Sorry I can't answer your specific question.  I will say that years ago I was run off by the police when I was collecting at a roadcut in Topanga Canyon.  I was told the locals had lobbied for and received a local ordinance banning collecting from roadcuts due to problems with erosion and rocks rolling into the street.  I guess it's hard to avoid rocks in the roadway when you're taking the curves at 180 miles an hour in your Ferrari.

 

Don

[thebluecatapilla]

23 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

Sorry I can't answer your specific question.  I will say that years ago I was run off by the police when I was collecting at a roadcut in Topanga Canyon.  I was told the locals had lobbied for and received a local ordinance banning collecting from roadcuts due to problems with erosion and rocks rolling into the street.  I guess it's hard to avoid rocks in the roadway when you're taking the curves at 180 miles an hour in your Ferrari.

 

Don

 

Ah yes. Surely fossil hunters should be held accountable for the expensive accidents related to going way too fast on windy roads...

 

And did the officer just let you know of the ordinance and give you a friendly warning? And apart from certain readouts, should be I not be concerned about collecting while hiking? 

[Pemphix]

32 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

 I guess it's hard to avoid rocks in the roadway when you're taking the curves at 180 miles an hour in your Ferrari.

 

Don

[SailingAlongToo]

It is my understanding it's illegal to collect vertebrate fossils on all federally owned land. However, it is legal to collect invertebrates. Not sure on the actual specifics in area you mentioned.

[FossilDAWG]

This document discusses geological resource management within the park.  Unfortunately it is clearly stated that fossil collecting is illegal within the park (page 38, last paragraph).  Some associated areas are privately owned, but even there (as in the Old Topanga Canyon area) the land owners do not allow fossil collecting.  

 

Don

[MightyPretzel]

All collecting is prohibited on public lands within the Santa Monica Mountains.

[thebluecatapilla]

1 hour ago, FossilDAWG said:

This document discusses geological resource management within the park.  Unfortunately it is clearly stated that fossil collecting is illegal within the park (page 38, last paragraph).  Some associated areas are privately owned, but even there (as in the Old Topanga Canyon area) the land owners do not allow fossil collecting.  

 

Don

 

Well this is a little unfortunate and thank you for sharing this document. But I don't know because it seems to suggest that there are several subdivisions within the park with different levels of protections. And it is a recreation area, and not a national park. There is no specific citation to a law that states that fossil hunting is prohibited within the entire boundary of the park. How can the full recreation area be closed off to any fossil collecting? 

49 minutes ago, MightyPretzel said:

All collecting is prohibited on public lands within the Santa Monica Mountains.

I see, do you have a source to the document that defines this prohibition? 

[FossilDAWG]

41 minutes ago, thebluecatapilla said:

 

... But I don't know because it seems to suggest that there are several subdivisions within the park with different levels of protections.

I do not see any ambiguity in the statement "As with all National Park Service areas, fossil collecting is prohibited in the park."   By "it" I assume you mean the document I linked, which is titled "Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area Geologic Resources Inventory Report.  Natural Resource Report NPS/NRSS/GRD/NRR—2016/1297", so it deals specifically with the Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area, the very area you asked about.  It was prepared by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior, who administer the area.  Who else would provide a more authoritative answer to your question?

 

It seems you are hoping someone will provide you with a "dodge" that would justify collecting in the park.  No-one on this Forum is able to provide you with permission or an excuse to collect on land within the National Park system.  If you don't like the answers you are getting here (which I admit are not what I would want to hear), why not call the park administration directly and talk to a park ranger?  If a park ranger tells you it's OK to surface collect, or dig a trench, or whatever be sure to get their name or record the call in case you need it to defend yourself in court.

 

Also I think it's unreasonable to expect people to do your legal research for you.  I provided you with an official document that provides a clear answer, albeit not the one you want.  Now you want me to research land titles and mineral rights for adjoining properties?

 

Talk to a park ranger.  They will tell you the rules that apply within the park.

 

Don

[MightyPretzel]

There are several national parks within the Santa Monica Mountains (Zuma, Paramount Ranch, Solstice Canyon, etc.)  I believe FossilDAWG did a great job of pointing out a reliable, authoritative source that discusses collecting in those areas.

 

There are also state-owned parks (Leo Carrillo, Point Mugu, Malibu Creek, etc.), a couple of Los Angeles County parks, and several parks owned by the Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy/Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority (Triunfo Creek, Charmlee Wilderness, King Gillette Ranch, etc.) Each public entity has their own regulations that apply to their respective parkland and some entities have more than one regulation that may apply. SMMC/MRCA is a great example of the latter. They have regulations that prohibit: going off trail, altering the condition of the land, trespassing under parkland, disturbing the peace, and collecting.

 

Hope that helps.  

 

 

 

 

[jpc]

I can see why the OP was "a little bit confused".

 

[SmittyNM]

Your best bet is to go to the source - The park rangers who manage the land. 

 

From my work with both Federal and State agencies, in general you can expect the answer to be "No".  The exceptions to this rule are the BLM and the Forest service.  In both cases they only allow the collection of invertebrates. Though be careful because not every national forest allows for collection, and in many cases there are certain areas that may be closed to collection. 

 

A fun recent example.   I have been wanting to do some collecting in an area that is operated by the Army Corp of Engineers.. Many years ago, the area was opened to the public for picnicking and hiking (before my interest in fossils). I knew lots of folks who would go hike and play on the land (myself included).  I even knew folks who would occasionally find fossils and sometimes take them home.  This area has multiple outcrops of Mancos shale and is littered with ammonites. Fast forward to last fall and my current obsession with Fossils.One of my bucket list fossils is a nice ammonite. I remembered the ACE land and decided I wanted to go back and look at the area.  Well, these days the area is closed off to the public due to a lack of funds.  A resourceful person can still enter the area, there are no trespassing or keep out signs anywhere.  So I decided that I would be resourceful and take a look at some of the more promising areas (This could have resulted in fines if I had gotten caught - which I was willing to accept at the time). I also contacted a colleague who works for the ACE. to see if I could get specific permission to access the site and collect.  Unfortunately the reply came back that it is not allowed.  This is specifically covered under CFR Title 36 Regulations.    

 

Destruction, in jury, defacement, removal, or any alteration of public

property including, but not limited to, developed facilities, natural

formations, mineral deposits, historical and archaeological features,

paleontological resources, boundary monumentation or markers and vegetative

growth, is prohibited except when in accordance with written permission of

the District Commander".

 

I have since found several ACE properties across the country where they allow for fossil collection if one applies for a permit.  I hope to make an appeal to allow for the collection of invertebrate fossils with a permit.  We'll see where it goes.

 

Moral of the story:  "Ask the local administrator."  Even if there is a blanket policy for collecting, many times the locals in charge may have altered it.

[thebluecatapilla]

7 hours ago, FossilDAWG said:

I do not see any ambiguity in the statement "As with all National Park Service areas, fossil collecting is prohibited in the park."   By "it" I assume you mean the document I linked, which is titled "Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area Geologic Resources Inventory Report.  Natural Resource Report NPS/NRSS/GRD/NRR—2016/1297", so it deals specifically with the Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area, the very area you asked about.  It was prepared by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior, who administer the area.  Who else would provide a more authoritative answer to your question?

 

It seems you are hoping someone will provide you with a "dodge" that would justify collecting in the park.  No-one on this Forum is able to provide you with permission or an excuse to collect on land within the National Park system.  If you don't like the answers you are getting here (which I admit are not what I would want to hear), why not call the park administration directly and talk to a park ranger?  If a park ranger tells you it's OK to surface collect, or dig a trench, or whatever be sure to get their name or record the call in case you need it to defend yourself in court.

 

Also I think it's unreasonable to expect people to do your legal research for you.  I provided you with an official document that provides a clear answer, albeit not the one you want.  Now you want me to research land titles and mineral rights for adjoining properties?

 

Talk to a park ranger.  They will tell you the rules that apply within the park.

 

Don

Ah well, I guess I was hoping for some sort of loophole. I shall contact a ranger and see what happens, but I can admit my prospects are not bright. I didn’t mean to make others go through the trouble of doing legal research for me, and I appreciate the effort you went through to find and search through the document you linked. Thank you for the informative reply, and sorry for my being daft. 

[thebluecatapilla]

6 hours ago, MightyPretzel said:

There are several national parks within the Santa Monica Mountains (Zuma, Paramount Ranch, Solstice Canyon, etc.)  I believe FossilDAWG did a great job of pointing out a reliable, authoritative source that discusses collecting in those areas.

 

There are also state-owned parks (Leo Carrillo, Point Mugu, Malibu Creek, etc.), a couple of Los Angeles County parks, and several parks owned by the Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy/Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority (Triunfo Creek, Charmlee Wilderness, King Gillette Ranch, etc.) Each public entity has their own regulations that apply to their respective parkland and some entities have more than one regulation that may apply. SMMC/MRCA is a great example of the latter. They have regulations that prohibit: going off trail, altering the condition of the land, trespassing under parkland, disturbing the peace, and collecting.

 

Hope that helps.  

 

 

 

 

It does indeed help, thank you!

[thebluecatapilla]

6 hours ago, jpc said:

I can see why the OP was "a little bit confused".

 

Indeed, but I suppose it is quite clear now. 

 

5 hours ago, SmittyNM said:

 

 

Ah well I see. Quite the interesting tale. Thank you for sharing your experiences. 

[DPS Ammonite]

2 hours ago, thebluecatapilla said:

Ah well, I guess I was hoping for some sort of loophole. I shall contact a ranger and see what happens, but I can admit my prospects are not bright. I didn’t mean to make others go through the trouble of doing legal research for me, and I appreciate the effort you went through to find and search through the document you linked. Thank you for the informative reply, and sorry for my being daft. 

Whenever you talk to the rangers or managers in regards to collecting policies, have them cite the rule, code or law. Have them put it in writing in case another agent dissagrees with you when you are out collecting. Sometimes the rules allow them great leeway to allow or not allow collecting. I have had government people tell me things that I know was wrong and they could not cite anything to back up their statement.

 

Most importantly, always treat the officials with respect even if you do not agree with them. They have a tough job dealing with many unreasonable persons.

[FossilDAWG]

7 hours ago, thebluecatapilla said:

Ah well, I guess I was hoping for some sort of loophole. I shall contact a ranger and see what happens, but I can admit my prospects are not bright. I didn’t mean to make others go through the trouble of doing legal research for me, and I appreciate the effort you went through to find and search through the document you linked. Thank you for the informative reply, and sorry for my being daft. 

I certainly understand your frustration.  It is infuriating to see more and more fossiliferous outcrop closed off to collecting.  It seems to be particularly true that close to big cities any remaining undeveloped land is turned into parks and any fossils that may be present are "protected" by allowing them to erode into dust. You may have to travel further to satisfy your collecting bug and stay on the right side of the law.  You should probably still talk to a ranger.  Assuming you are interested in invertebrate fossils be sure to state that when you ask, otherwise they tend to assume you are looking for vertebrates which are off limits on all federal land. Good luck!

 

Don

[thebluecatapilla]

6 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Whenever you talk to the rangers or managers in regards to collecting policies, have them cite the rule, code or law. Have them put it in writing in case another agent dissagrees with you when you are out collecting. Sometimes the rules allow them great leeway to allow or not allow collecting. I have had government people tell me things that I know was wrong and they could not cite anything to back up their statement.

 

Most importantly, always treat the officials with respect even if you do not agree with them. They have a tough job dealing with many unreasonable persons.

This is a great idea, and I will definitely take it into consideration. Thank you. And of course it is always best to treat officials with respect. As the saying goes: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar 

[thebluecatapilla]

18 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

I certainly understand your frustration.  It is infuriating to see more and more fossiliferous outcrop closed off to collecting.  It seems to be particularly true that close to big cities any remaining undeveloped land is turned into parks and any fossils that may be present are "protected" by allowing them to erode into dust. You may have to travel further to satisfy your collecting bug and stay on the right side of the law.  You should probably still talk to a ranger.  Assuming you are interested in invertebrate fossils be sure to state that when you ask, otherwise they tend to assume you are looking for vertebrates which are off limits on all federal land. Good luck!

 

Don

Thank you for the reply FossilDAWG. It is indeed quite a bit frustrating. It is a little sad that all these fossiliferous strata are being closed of to fossil hunters and are instead succumbing to the sands of time and erosion. I will try to talk to a ranger and see what they say about collection of invertebrates. But either way I guess it just gives a good reason to take a road trip