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Shellseeker

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I hunt with good friends.  This was last Saturday.

One friend knows I like mammal ear bones.  So he donated this one to me. I have identified a number of Florida fossil ear bones, but not this one... yet. It seems to be broken and not horse, camel or bison,  about that size.  

5729Crop.JPG.1e154937b456f0bc1c14f0249bf3a9f6.JPG5730Crop.JPG.ac4617c915e55fd969c597f4c23b517c.JPG

The other friend found this tooth,  thought it might be deer.  But I ventured that it was a camel premolar and I would be able to identify once back home.

IMG_5689.thumb.jpg.1bab47163ca73589ab32a14274a935f7.jpg

IMG_5694.thumb.jpg.265d8eb54d9bc0bd0e72d1dd285c9b95.jpgIMG_5693.thumb.jpg.1f43573bd5b64525a38107c588b3725f.jpg

But after I compared it to this photo from the Florida Museum of Natural History, I was far less sure> Can it be either p4?

Heniaucheniamacrocephala (below) PaleolamaMirifica

Fig6_HeniaucheniamacrocephalaPaleolamaMirifica_P4s.jpg.14eb58f617b329c66baa3a0124d86335.jpg

 

Finally , a Sand Tiger which I found .  If there are a lot of Peace River hunters who find sand tigers with double cusps on each side, raise your hand.  We 3 agreed that this was very unusual. Is this really a Carcharias taurus tooth? Are there any other possibilities?   IMG_5735crop.thumb.jpg.529284f17d7b57186ff8f467b0814c88.jpg

 

Thanks for all responses.  Jack

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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15 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Is this really a Carcharias taurus tooth? Are there any other possibilities?  

Hi Jack, here in Savannah after looking through my images I get the makings of a 'double-cusp' at times.  At other times they are more like vestigial nubs.  Here are a few examples.  Ignore the ID's on the images. 

 

Cheers,

Brett

 

 

This one on top is the most prominant, still shows some wear so they may have been more prominent at one point in time.

01_SavannahGA_FieldsCut_080818_SandTiger.thumb.jpg.5ce1684b5cce3c3323d78701e7bb0001.jpg

 

01_SummervilleSC_071718_LemonSandTiger.thumb.jpg.ec1e51b536eae1088073391883640909.jpg

 

 

 

 

01_Tiger_SavannahGA_070218.jpg

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9 hours ago, Brett Breakin' Rocks said:

Hi Jack, here in Savannah after looking through my images I get the makings of a 'double-cusp' at times.  At other times they are more like vestigial nubs.  Here are a few examples.  Ignore the ID's on the images. 

 

Cheers,

Brett

I :wub: your photos , Brett.  Thanks for both creating and sharing them!!!

I did some searching on the net just now.  There must be 10-15 different named varieties of "Sand Tiger" fossil teeth, many of them rare.

There are a couple of varieties "Carcharias Taurus" and "Carcharias Cuspidata" that are relatively common, and happen to be sold by an unnamed website as Venice Florida mid_miocene shark teeth. On that website, the ones identified as Cuspidata tend to be smaller and look exactly like the tooth I found, including the double cusps. The ones identified as "Taurus" look like this:

CarchariastaurusMergetxt.thumb.jpg.06d4edd0f4dc070f8dd31bfd5cc9149d.jpg

 

The website owner seems to differentiate on size and cusp shape and number. My question to TFF fossil shark tooth experts is "How do you differentiate between Carcharias Taurus and Carcharias Cuspidata?".  Thanks Jack

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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I'm pretty sure it is a Brachycarcharias lerechei, Eocene.

 

Please check out the photos below, coutesry of Jim Bourdon via elasmo.com

cn_b_lerichei-web.jpg

ds1117p-web.jpg

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'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

George Santayana

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Out hunting, time to update this thread:

Sent the Llama photos to Richard Hulbert, including the one below showing the broken roots.

 

IMG_5738.thumb.jpg.7be8bd54762de9d5a2fd48f01096393b.jpg

His reply; Net = P3, upper premolar of Heniauchenia Macrocephala or Paleolama Mirifica.  @Harry Pristis Harry, fyi and not seeing obvious crenulations, I am thinking this is Heniauchenia Macrocephala.

Quote

In llamas (and many other mammals), the deciduous premolars function and look more like the adult molar teeth than they do the permanent premolars that will replace them. After all, the animal needs to process food while it is growing to adult size. The fourth upper deciduous premolar of a llama will have four roots and look just like an adult molar. The third upper deciduous premolar is  basically the equivalent to ¾’s of a molar and has three roots. So that is what you have found.  

Richard

 

On 4/24/2019 at 5:12 AM, hemipristis said:

I'm pretty sure it is a Brachycarcharias lerechei, Eocene.

 

Please check out the photos below, coutesry of Jim Bourdon via elasmo.com

Thank you for the identification. I agree that it looks the same.  Never the less, I am stunned!! Brachycarcharias lerichei is not easy to identify as a shark tooth found in Florida. I have done some internet searching and found references for this shark in eocene bone beds of Alabama and South Carolina.

 

On 4/24/2019 at 7:02 AM, MarcoSr said:

The earbone looks like it is from a Cetacean.

 

Marco Sr.

Thanks, Let me see if Bobby is listening. @Boesse  This would be the largest dolphin earbone I have ever found. Size is 21 x 27 x 51 mm

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Update:

Got this picture off of Bobby's Blogspot... Herpetocetus transatlanticus is a small Baleen whale that lived in the seas over Florida and much of the US east coast.

image.png.f264f62dd53e53624adbe5d9c4734db3.png

 

At 51 mm, within the size range to compare to lower left of above picture....

BaleenWhale_earboneSlant.thumb.jpg.fb115ba3a188336ad4a5c090f62f808c.jpg

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:56 PM, Shellseeker said:

I :wub: your photos , Brett.  Thanks for both creating and sharing them!!!

I did some searching on the net just now.  There must be 10-15 different named varieties of "Sand Tiger" fossil teeth, many of them rare.

There are a couple of varieties "Carcharias Taurus" and "Carcharias Cuspidata" that are relatively common, and happen to be sold by an unnamed website as Venice Florida mid_miocene shark teeth. On that website, the ones identified as Cuspidata tend to be smaller and look exactly like the tooth I found, including the double cusps. The ones identified as "Taurus" look like this:

CarchariastaurusMergetxt.thumb.jpg.06d4edd0f4dc070f8dd31bfd5cc9149d.jpg

 

The website owner seems to differentiate on size and cusp shape and number. My question to TFF fossil shark tooth experts is "How do you differentiate between Carcharias Taurus and Carcharias Cuspidata?".  Thanks Jack

In response to your query: Carcharias taurus teeth have noticeable striations running the length of the blade (lingual side) very similar to the Paleogene Striatolamia sp.  In contrast, C. cuspidata do not. The surface of the lingual side of their blade is smooth.

 

Conjectural observation on my part: My C. taurus teeth tend to obtain larger size than my C. cuspidata teeth.

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

George Santayana

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On 4/26/2019 at 2:12 AM, hemipristis said:

Carcharias taurus teeth have noticeable striations running the length of the blade (lingual side) very similar to the Paleogene Striatolamia sp

 

I have 3 extant Carcharias taurus jaws and numerous loose teeth (see below pictures) and although some teeth show ornamentation by the very root or a few crown wrinkles on the lingual side there is no evidence of noticeable striations on the crowns.

 

5cc451932ebf6_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower16_5mm.thumb.jpg.0a554b466a9a18ca4e6081ee46ac8801.jpg

 

5cc45194982db_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower218_5mm.thumb.jpg.db3f642f0673a133d3aacab72991c31c.jpg

 

5cc4519674742_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper20mm.thumb.jpg.168c344ab3ae02b04743f3f69fbe60f4.jpg

 

5cc451982a864_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper223mm.thumb.jpg.bbb8efa1f78f156a3d58f4ca0d9d68dd.jpg

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

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"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Nice periotic/petrosal! It's NOT Herpetocetus but rather a closely related unnamed new genus known mostly from scattered remains from the late Miocene-Pliocene of the southeast, including periotics from Florida, North Carolina, and a partial cranium we have from nearby Charleston.

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Thanks, Bobby and all ... Looking at Marco Sr Carcharias taurus  teeth (the last 2), I seem to see start of a double

On 4/24/2019 at 5:12 AM, hemipristis said:

Brachycarcharias lerechei, Eocene

cusp on each side. While I would love if this find were lerichei, the location found would almost deny Eocene.. I would say 90% likely is C Taurus

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1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Thanks, Bobby and all ... Looking at Marco Sr Carcharias taurus  teeth (the last 2), I seem to see start of a double

cusp on each side. While I would love if this find were lerichei, the location found would almost deny Eocene.. I would say 90% likely is C Taurus

 

The following figure from Purdy 2006 shows that C. taurus can also have very evident double cusplets on each side of the crown.  My jaws and loose teeth don't show these evident double cusplets

 

image.png.f7a6ce7ab663d9b8c6c60a40e9c20cc6.png

 

 

Marco Sr.

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"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Cool image--thanks.

 

The variability in tooth position and ontology of the individual make assigning IDs to isolated teeth more difficult than reading the future from tea leaves. I'm always amazed that we can know anything about ancient shark species given that we usually only find teeth.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 10:59 PM, MarcoSr said:

 

I have 3 extant Carcharias taurus jaws and numerous loose teeth (see below pictures) and although some teeth show ornamentation by the very root or a few crown wrinkles on the lingual side there is no evidence of noticeable striations on the crowns.

 

5cc451932ebf6_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower16_5mm.thumb.jpg.0a554b466a9a18ca4e6081ee46ac8801.jpg

 

5cc45194982db_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower218_5mm.thumb.jpg.db3f642f0673a133d3aacab72991c31c.jpg

 

5cc4519674742_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper20mm.thumb.jpg.168c344ab3ae02b04743f3f69fbe60f4.jpg

 

5cc451982a864_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper223mm.thumb.jpg.bbb8efa1f78f156a3d58f4ca0d9d68dd.jpg

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

Do you have photos of the labial side of the last two?

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

George Santayana

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On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 10:59 PM, MarcoSr said:

 

I have 3 extant Carcharias taurus jaws and numerous loose teeth (see below pictures) and although some teeth show ornamentation by the very root or a few crown wrinkles on the lingual side there is no evidence of noticeable striations on the crowns.

Marco Sr.

I meant "wrinkles".  I can only go on what I have from my references, which include LCIII, elasmo and Agassiz (1841), who note the presence of strations/wrinkles (they each seem to utilize the terms interchangeably) on the basal ~1/3 to 1/2 of the lingual side of the blade as the distinguishing feature between  C. Taurus and C. cuspidata, though primarily on the anterior teeth.  The also note the slight increase in size with C. taurus.

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

George Santayana

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6 hours ago, hemipristis said:

I meant "wrinkles".  I can only go on what I have from my references, which include LCIII, elasmo and Agassiz (1841), who note the presence of strations/wrinkles (they each seem to utilize the terms interchangeably) on the basal ~1/3 to 1/2 of the lingual side of the blade as the distinguishing feature between  C. Taurus and C. cuspidata, though primarily on the anterior teeth.  The also note the slight increase in size with C. taurus.

 

There is very little consistency among researchers on a lot of shark tooth terminology which makes things extremely confusing.  Also I find looking at actual extant jaws, which I have been doing for about five years now, that there is a lot of variation in the teeth of a shark species so not all researcher observations apply equally to the teeth in each jaw.  C. taurus anterior teeth show what I call wrinkles which are different from raised striations in my opinion.  As you move distally in the jaw, the wrinkles are much sparser or not evident at all in the teeth and jaws that I possess.  The C. taurus jaws and teeth that I have don't have strong double cusplets on the side of the teeth crowns like in the Purdy figure that I posted above.  Just another very obvious variation in the teeth of a shark species.

 

Marco Sr.

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"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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6 hours ago, hemipristis said:

Do you have photos of the labial side of the last two?

 

I always take both lingual and labial pictures of my shark teeth when I can.  See below:

 

5ccad74a5086d_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower16_5mm2.thumb.jpg.35bc59e2353134fac43c5f3fb2a38877.jpg

 

5ccad74bae28a_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower218_5mm2.thumb.jpg.271a4eabe861624860e6685b2e6df8d9.jpg

 

5ccad74d601dc_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper20mm2.thumb.jpg.a738891f65861cf0c3319139c1ec4cad.jpg

 

5ccad74f319a2_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper223mm2.thumb.jpg.b8f57b803db75f174cb01620bf5dfb40.jpg

 

Marco Sr.

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"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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6 minutes ago, MarcoSr said:

 

I always take both lingual and labial pictures of my shark teeth when I can.  See below:

 

5ccad74a5086d_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower16_5mm2.thumb.jpg.35bc59e2353134fac43c5f3fb2a38877.jpg

 

5ccad74bae28a_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Lower218_5mm2.thumb.jpg.271a4eabe861624860e6685b2e6df8d9.jpg

 

5ccad74d601dc_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper20mm2.thumb.jpg.a738891f65861cf0c3319139c1ec4cad.jpg

 

5ccad74f319a2_Carchariastaurus(SandTigerShark)Upper223mm2.thumb.jpg.b8f57b803db75f174cb01620bf5dfb40.jpg

 

Marco Sr.

Amazing detail!  what type of camera do you use? Tied to a Microscope?

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

George Santayana

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15 minutes ago, MarcoSr said:

 

There is very little consistency among researchers on a lot of shark tooth terminology which makes things extremely confusing.  Also I find looking at actual extant jaws, which I have been doing for about five years now, that there is a lot of variation in the teeth of a shark species so not all researcher observations apply equally to the teeth in each jaw.  C. taurus anterior teeth show what I call wrinkles which are different from raised striations in my opinion.  As you move distally in the jaw, the wrinkles are much sparser or not evident at all in the teeth and jaws that I possess.  The C. taurus jaws and teeth that I have don't have strong double cusplets on the side of the teeth crowns like in the Purdy figure that I posted above.  Just another very obvious variation in the teeth of a shark species.

 

Marco Sr.

I concur ee: the difference between striae and wrinkles.  My regret my use of 'striations' in my OP

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

George Santayana

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1 hour ago, hemipristis said:

Amazing detail!  what type of camera do you use? Tied to a Microscope?

 

I actually see better tooth feature detail in my teeth pictures than I do using a 10X jeweler's loupe looking at the teeth.  Plus the pictures are a great reference because I look at so many different shark teeth that the detailed feature differences tend to blur over time.

 

I use a Dino-Lite AM4815ZT digital microscope with a built in camera to take my teeth pictures.  The microscope software has built in picture stacking capability which is extremely useful in bringing the entire tooth into focus in the pictures.  There are lots of picture settings that I can adjust in the software but I usually only adjust the exposure setting when taking pictures.  The microscope also has a polarization ring which I can manually adjust to reduce light hot spots.  Although I have a number of different external lights, I rarely use them.  This microscope is costly but I take thousands of pictures a year so the per picture cost made it worthwhile for me to purchase.  I've been taking teeth pictures/images for many years using different scanners, cameras and attachments and microscopes, and this is the easiest/quickest to use and I think produces the best picture/image quality.  Two major shark researchers, one in the US and the other in England, started using this microscope after seeing some of my pictures on Facebook.

 

Marco Sr.

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"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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