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Real Triceratops frill?


olorotitan

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Is this a genuine Triceratops frill fragment?  It is from Hell Creek, MT.  The seller has other frill pieces that look similar, along with other dino teeth.   From what I've read in other posts, it sounds like presence of blood grooves confirm identity as a triceratops frill.  I don't see overt grooves on the planar surface but I see evidence of a thin spongy bone layer in the cross section suggesting to me it is still bone of some sort. 

 

Thanks for any assistance.  

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2 hours ago, olorotitan said:

Triceratops frill fragment

Sorry I can’t say if it is a Ceratopsian frill. Even if it was I don’t think you could be completely sure that it's Triceratops based on such a small fragment.  I have a small chunk I just label it as Ceratopsian frill. Our friends @LordTrilobite and @Troodon will help with an ID if possible.  Cheers Bobby 

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6 minutes ago, Bobby Rico said:

Sorry I can’t say if it is a ceratopsian frill. Even if it was I don’t think you could be completely sure that it's Triceratops based on such a small fragment.  I have a small chunk I just label it as ceratopsian frill. Our friends @LordTrilobite and @Troodon will help with an ID if possible.  Cheers Bobby 

 

Absolutely agree with you there, this fragment if it is indeed a frill would be way too small to indicate genus.  However, I was under the assumption Triceratops was the main ceratopsian present at hell creek.  I just now looked at the wiki page for hell creek formation, there are some genus that are possibly synonymous with Triceratops and a smaller ceratopsian known as Leptoceratops.  The Lepto seems to have a tiny frill though.

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Sellers always list Ceratopsian material as Triceratops because it sells. I think they are 4 Ceratopsians in Hell Creek also includes Tatankaceratops and Torosaurus . I don’t know if it is possible to IDs this piece but the others will give a better insight. 

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I don't see the tell tale grooves of a ceratopsian frill as seen on Bobby Rico's photo.  But then they didn't all have the grooves.  The texture is not typical, but it could be water worn.  I do see some convoluted 'grain' pattern which is typical of ceratopsian frills (and ankylosaur scutes).  The even thickness is very characteristic of frill pieces... some of them.  If I had this in my collection I would call it a ceratopsian frill piece. 

 

I am looking at the pix again.  The third photo almost shows grooves.  Do you see large grooves in it if looked at in low angle lighting?  If so, then definitely ceratopsian. 

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I agree with jpc. It doesn't seem like it has the most clear identifiable features, but it still is likely a piece of frill.

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Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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3 hours ago, jpc said:

I don't see the tell tale grooves of a ceratopsian frill as seen on Bobby Rico's photo.  But then they didn't all have the grooves.  The texture is not typical, but it could be water worn.  I do see some convoluted 'grain' pattern which is typical of ceratopsian frills (and ankylosaur scutes).  The even thickness is very characteristic of frill pieces... some of them.  If I had this in my collection I would call it a ceratopsian frill piece. 

 

I am looking at the pix again.  The third photo almost shows grooves.  Do you see large grooves in it if looked at in low angle lighting?  If so, then definitely ceratopsian. 

 

Thank you for your analysis.  These are pictures provided by the seller, I do not own the specimen currently. 

Now that you've got me thinking about biology, do you know if the grooves interpreted to be traces of blood vessels?  If so, which side of the frill would one expect to find these vessels (e.g. anterior or posterior)?

 

Thank you @LordTrilobite and @Troodon for your input as well!

 

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