figginsdiggins Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 This is a bone found by me which doesn't look quite like any of the other horse, bison, or deer bones we most commonly find. 9 inches long. Almost 2 inches at its widest points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 bovid metapodial (bison/cow cannon bone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 This is a bone found by me which doesn't look quite like any of the other horse, bison, or deer bones we most commonly find. 9 inches long. Almost 2 inches at its widest points. You're correct to eliminate cow, bison, horse, or deer. I don't think it's a camel, either. The smallest camel cannon bone in my drawer is about 12" long, and the component bones are much better fused. Your specimen is an artiodactyl metapodial - a cannon bone. Suidae are eliminated. That leaves animals like goats and pronghorn antelopes and (?). I have neither a goat nor an antelope cannon bone for comparison, so you'll have to take it from here. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyrules244 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Looks Camel to me (ducks and runs for cover) lol "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 oh, it does not either look camelid. i'll grant that the diaphysis diameter is probably too gracile to be bovid, since it would have to be a calf, and the epiphyses are ossified already. but then again, i found online that a newborn angus cannon bone averages like 16.6 cm in length and 11.7 in diaphysis circumference, so that's in the ballpark... meh - bone i.d. is for the birds. ask auspex what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricFlorida Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 It's bison. Florida pronghorn (Capromeryx) cannon bones are very small, much smaller than even deer. www.PrehistoricFlorida.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 It's bison. Florida pronghorn (Capromeryx) cannon bones are very small, much smaller than even deer. I don't think it's bison, Nate. Keep in mind that this cannon bone was collected in Tennessee, not Florida. Bison metapodial elements are well-fused, massive even. See this illustration from palaeos.com http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricFlorida Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Looks very similar to some I've found in the St. Marks River. I'm not sure on the species, but I'm fairly certain they're in the Bison/Bos family. One can easily eliminate other Artiodactyls that were running around during the Late Pleistocene. But hey, I could be wrong, I don't know what a bead is either =). www.PrehistoricFlorida.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 transverse diaphysis diameter and other metapodial dimensions vary widely between bovid metapodials, both between different animals, between anterior and posterior leg bones, and due to sexual dimorphism. although i can post pictures of the wide variances, a "scholarly" article seems frequently preferable and a brief read can be found in the .pdf file here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Looks very similar to some I've found in the St. Marks River. I'm not sure on the species, but I'm fairly certain they're in the Bison/Bos family. One can easily eliminate other Artiodactyls that were running around during the Late Pleistocene. But hey, I could be wrong, I don't know what a bead is either =). (I don't understand the "bead" reference.) Just glancing through Kurten's book, I can see some candidates for this metapodial that we don't see in Florida. The likeliest candidates are actually cervids - the fugitive deer, Sangamona fugitiva; the stag-moose, Cervalces scotti; the wapiti, Cervus elaphus. I'm sure there are other possibilities I've overlooked. I think the best thing would be for figgins to take this bone to the closest museum or university where there is a comparative collection. I hope he'll let us know what he discovers. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricFlorida Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 (I don't understand the "bead" reference.) Just glancing through Kurten's book, I can see some candidates for this metapodial that we don't see in Florida. The likeliest candidates are actually cervids - the fugitive deer, Sangamona fugitiva; the stag-moose, Cervalces scotti; the wapiti, Cervus elaphus. I'm sure there are other possibilities I've overlooked. I think the best thing would be for figgins to take this bone to the closest museum or university where there is a comparative collection. I hope he'll let us know what he discovers. The bead thing was from another thread. I agree, Figgins should take this bone to a local museum or university for comparison. www.PrehistoricFlorida.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 well, heck. while the university is figuring out cannon bones... you got your different size ones to worry about. but the book i have on differentiating postcranial bones of bos and bison goes only by morphological differences, never size, and even then, they show only what percentage of the known bones of each specie showed the characteristics noted, and sometimes it was a 50/50 kinda thing. but anyway, as i mentioned, you have your different size cannon bones... and you've got your different size toes to go with the different size cannon bones... and then you've got your university-size cannon bone questions... so, let me know what the folks in the puzzle palace say it is, wouldja? maybe they'll stand up a new species or sompin. you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 well, heck. while the university is figuring out cannon bones... you got your different size ones to worry about. but the book i have on differentiating postcranial bones of bos and bison goes only by morphological differences, never size, and even then, they show only what percentage of the known bones of each specie showed the characteristics noted, and sometimes it was a 50/50 kinda thing. but anyway, as i mentioned, you have your different size cannon bones... and you've got your different size toes to go with the different size cannon bones... and then you've got your university-size cannon bone questions... so, let me know what the folks in the puzzle palace say it is, wouldja? maybe they'll stand up a new species or sompin. you never know. Them some sure 'nough pretty bones there. I'm gonna throw a couple comparison pics in here of a bone, I thought was bison. Seems like it was identified as such . Sorry about the pictures, but I think they'll do just for a size comparison. I have some better pictures of it on another of my threads here. I'll try to find them too. This little jewel is 9.5 inches long by 3.5 at its widest point. No less than 2.5 inches wide at its narrow point, and no less than 1.25 inches thick at its thinnest. Really a flat looking bone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 Yeah, they're some better pics of it over in members collections under the figginses digginses. Not much room for doubt on the bigger bone being bison. Spitting image of that yellow bone picture a few replies up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenixflood Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Just glancing through Kurten's book, I can see some candidates for this metapodial that we don't see in Florida. The likeliest candidates are actually cervids - the fugitive deer, Sangamona fugitiva; the stag-moose, Cervalces scotti; the wapiti, Cervus elaphus. I'm sure there are other possibilities I've overlooked.... I would have to agree that it appears to be a deer like animal. Look at the thinness of the bone; an animal such as that would not have been a very heavy one. It would not have been able to move very fast. The length and width as a bone makes me think it was a fast runner. The soul of a Fossil Hunter is one that is seeking, always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 true enough that the very dense, wide metacarpal seems to scream out male bison foreleg. the question remains whether the accompanying smaller one screams that it's too gracile to be bovid at all, or whether it could be female, yearling, hind leg. the epiphyses should have ossified by like 14 months of age. i read elsewhere that a study on modern cattle measured newborn angus cannon bones at around 6.5 inches long and around 1.5 inches in diameter. i am at this point not at all arguing that the first very gracile metapodial shown, as well as the last, very worn one in my picture, are necessarily bovid in origin, as opposed to, say, cervid. but the point is that i'm pretty confident that several other of the fairly gracile metapodials shown are in fact bovid, so that possibility shouldn't automatically be ruled out absent clear morphological differences. (aside to myself - ok, i think you've squeaked in enough confusion to have generated reasonable doubt and probably won't be convicted of yet another "everything's a bison" beef [pun intended]. but you need to watch it from now on and use calipers and such on your monitor screen because at some point they're going to start enhancing the punishments) oh, look! small font! must have been typed by a deer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkGelbart Posted September 1, 2010 Share Posted September 1, 2010 I'm weak on anatomy and have no idea what animal that specimen is from. I did watch a video online about the Big Bone Lick Fossil Site. A professor mentioned a species of dwarf bison they occasionally find fossils of there. I haven't found any other mention of dwarf bison anywhere. So one can add dwarf bison to the list of possiblities along with caribou--another deer that lived in Tennessee during the Ice Age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 1, 2010 Share Posted September 1, 2010 Them some sure 'nough pretty bones there. I'm gonna throw a couple comparison pics in here of a bone, I thought was bison. Seems like it was identified as such . Sorry about the pictures, but I think they'll do just for a size comparison. I have some better pictures of it on another of my threads here. I'll try to find them too. This little jewel is 9.5 inches long by 3.5 at its widest point. No less than 2.5 inches wide at its narrow point, and no less than 1.25 inches thick at its thinnest. Really a flat looking bone. This mystery bone IS a bison (or cow) metatarsal. Bovid metatarsal and metacarpal are substantially different from each other. All those who guessed bison, take a bow. http://www.uwyo.edu/reallearning/bisonmedia/metatarsal.mov http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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