BLM Hell Creek Lands

[kinnza1]

Does anyone know if there is any overlap of BLM land on parts of the Hell Creek Formation in either South Dakota or Montana? Or are there other Mesozoic formations that have BLM overlap in South Dakota, Montana, or Wyoming for that matter? Judith River? Two Medicine? Morrison?

 

Have an upcoming trip through all those states, might be nice to have the ability to collect some non vertebrate fossils along the way.

[doushantuo]

Always assume ignorance of at least some partakers in a global forum.

BLM stands for (guessing here) Bureau of Land Management ?

[TyBoy]

What do you mean by overlap ? BLM land is found throughout SD and Montana's HC formation

[Troodon]

BLM land is found throughout those states where the HC formation has outcrops but typically its located inside private land so one needs to be careful to know where to legally collect and obtain landowner permission to access the land.  Also not sure what you mean by overlap?

[FossilNerd]

Had to look up what The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) was as it’s more of a western United States thing. Lol

 

I think he is meaning to ask... 

4 hours ago, kinnza1 said:

Does anyone know if there is any BLM managed land in either South Dakota or Montana that contains the Hell Creek Formation? Does the BLM managed land in South Dakota, Montana, or Wyoming contain any Mesozoic formations, or the Judith River, Two Medicine, and Morrison formations?

Correct in my assumption? @kinnza1

[jpc]

A lot of the formations you mention are exposed on BLM land.  And they are all full of vertebrate fossils, which are illegal to collect on BLM land.  Looking for inverts on BLM land is a recipe for trouble if you ask me.  They are out there, but if anyone catches you on BLM land with collecting equipment in these dinosaur-rich formations, you will be accused of poaching dinosaur fossils.  And just being accused will ruin your vacation.  

 

If you want inverts out here try Turritella Agate... google it.    

[rfarrar]

All of the western states have most of their fossil bearing formations exposed somewhere on BLM or Forest Service controlled lands. If you are interested in exploring for invertebrate fossils on Federal lands you should contact the local land managers office and ask what, if any, local restrictions apply. The regulations may allow the limited collecting of common invertebrate and plant fossils, but what is considered common is determined at a local administrative level. Some locations are protected from collecting for a wide range of reasons from wildlife study areas to areas of environmental concern. Local inquiry is a must to prevent potentially serious problems with BLM or Forest Service law enforcement.

 

Bob

[jpc]

2 hours ago, rfarrar said:

All of the western states have most of their fossil bearing formations exposed somewhere on BLM or Forest Service controlled lands. If you are interested in exploring for invertebrate fossils on Federal lands you should contact the local land managers office and ask what, if any, local restrictions apply. The regulations may allow the limited collecting of common invertebrate and plant fossils, but what is considered common is determined at a local administrative level. Some locations are protected from collecting for a wide range of reasons from wildlife study areas to areas of environmental concern. Local inquiry is a must to prevent potentially serious problems with BLM or Forest Service law enforcement.

 

Bob

well said, Bob.  

[kinnza1]

Thanks all for the replies and insight.

 

I guess to simplify, I'm looking for known areas where it is accessible for public searches for non-vertebrate fossils. I've contacted BLM (Bureau of Land Management) in South Dakota to discuss how this works, and it seems like BLM lands make sense for what I might be looking to do. 

 

I guess I could have phrased the question more as, "are there known areas between these states that are publicly accessible for non-vertebrate fossil collecting that fall into these different formations?"

 

If I'm able to narrow things down that way, then I can take steps to reaching out at the local level to see what this would look like. @rfarrar any thoughts on how to go about this/who best to contact at the local levels?

[rfarrar]

Difficult to say who is best to talk with. Being a commercially employed collector, I can't collect anything from Federal lands. Collecting for myself would be problematic as far as the land managers are concerned. The local academic paleontologists are are all vertebrate paleontologists, and since even invertebrate paleontologists need permits to conduct their research on BLM or Forest Service land, I doubt many of them would be helpful either. South Dakota BLM lands are managed through the Belle Fourche office, but some areas are Forest Service land where BLM manages only the subsurface. All the formations you mention are known for vertebrate fossils - most produce invertebrates of collectible quality only as a by-product of vertebrate excavations.

 

Bob

[cngodles]

This is so much higher profile, but you can't dig up fossils on federal land.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/us/dinosaur-fossil-tyrannosaurus-rex-sue/index.html

 

But you can try digging on land owned by Fed-Ex and find something amazing apparently, if you name it after them:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100315-new-fossil-amphibian-fedex/

[jdp]

Yeah, you absolutely cannot collect vertebrate fossils on BLM lands without a collection permit, and those are only given to research teams. Vertebrate fossils on BLM land are considered to be held in trust for the American people and must be properly reposited in nonprofit museums where they can be studied in perpetuity. There are a lot of restrictions concerning what even qualified professional researchers can do on BLM land (types of quarries, quarry mitigation steps, places we can dig quarries, etc) even after completing a pretty lengthy permitting process., and largely what we do must respect the other uses of that land, including mineral extraction, oil extraction, cattle herding, recreation, etc.

[TyBoy]

59 minutes ago, jdp said:

Yeah, you absolutely cannot collect vertebrate fossils on BLM lands without a collection permit, and those are only given to research teams. Vertebrate fossils on BLM land are considered to be held in trust for the American people and must be properly reposited in nonprofit museums where they can be studied in perpetuity. There are a lot of restrictions concerning what even qualified professional researchers can do on BLM land (types of quarries, quarry mitigation steps, places we can dig quarries, etc) even after completing a pretty lengthy permitting process., and largely what we do must respect the other uses of that land, including mineral extraction, oil extraction, cattle herding, recreation, etc.

I dont think anyone was suggesting the collecting of vertebrate fossils the subject was around invertebrates

[jpc]

3 minutes ago, TyBoy said:

I dont think anyone was suggesting the collecting of vertebrate fossils the subject was around invertebrates

True, and jdp's monologue is absolutely correct.  Trust me on this one; I have several BLM permits.  And he is from north of the border...

 

But like I said above, walking around in any dinosaur-rich formation with a rock hammer "Looking for snails" is a recipe for more adventure than most of us want.  As someone else said, most inverts found in these formations are found as a side-effect of looking for vertebrates.    

[FossilDAWG]

Personally, looking for "snails" in a formation known to be rich in vertebrates and poor in invertebrates would likely provide more temptation than I need in my life.  Best to steer clear.

 

Don

[jdp]

2 hours ago, jpc said:

True, and jdp's monologue is absolutely correct.  Trust me on this one; I have several BLM permits.  And he is from north of the border...

 

But like I said above, walking around in any dinosaur-rich formation with a rock hammer "Looking for snails" is a recipe for more adventure than most of us want.  As someone else said, most inverts found in these formations are found as a side-effect of looking for vertebrates.    

 

I also do fieldwork on BLM land down in the US, currently hold a few permits, and have been doing so for about 15 years. 

 

None of those formations have substantial invertebrate faunas that are easy to collect without major excavation. I've collected insects and plants from the Morrison Formation, but that required a substantial amount of excavation and....wait for it...I needed a BLM permit for that. None of these formations have the sort of dense and diverse marine invertebrate fauna that one could surface collect without a BLM permit.

 

I am not accusing anyone of saying "well, I'm just gonna go look for inverts" as cover for getting info about where to find dinosaur fossils, but when someone lists four classic dinosaur-bearing formations, I'm going to post a very specific reminder that collecting vertebrate fossils on public land is illegal and can get you into serious trouble. I, a professional, cannot collect vertebrate fossils without a permit that applies to that specific area and specifically lays out the collecting activities I am engaged in. I have had to leave scientifically important specimens in the field over winter because I did not have permits that would have allowed me to make those collections at that time. Take these laws seriously.

[jpc]

44 minutes ago, jdp said:

 

I also do fieldwork on BLM land down in the US, currently hold a few permits, and have been doing so for about 15 years. 

 

None of those formations have substantial invertebrate faunas that are easy to collect without major excavation. I've collected insects and plants from the Morrison Formation, but that required a substantial amount of excavation and....wait for it...I needed a BLM permit for that. None of these formations have the sort of dense and diverse marine invertebrate fauna that one could surface collect without a BLM permit.

 

I am not accusing anyone of saying "well, I'm just gonna go look for inverts" as cover for getting info about where to find dinosaur fossils, but when someone lists four classic dinosaur-bearing formations, I'm going to post a very specific reminder that collecting vertebrate fossils on public land is illegal and can get you into serious trouble. I, a professional, cannot collect vertebrate fossils without a permit that applies to that specific area and specifically lays out the collecting activities I am engaged in. I have had to leave scientifically important specimens in the field over winter because I did not have permits that would have allowed me to make those collections at that time. Take these laws seriously.

well said... I also consider it part of our responsibility as BLM permit holders, although I don't think it is official in any way, to educate the public about these rules/laws.

 

But wow.. more interestingly... insects in the Morrison!!  That is great.  Are you able to share pix?  Or are they awaiting publication? 

[jdp]

11 minutes ago, jpc said:

well said... I also consider it part of our responsibility as BLM permit holders, although I don't think it is official in any way, to educate the public about these rules/laws.

 

But wow.. more interestingly... insects in the Morrison!!  That is great.  Are you able to share pix?  Or are they awaiting publication? 

The grasshopper wing was published back in 2011:

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23019503?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

 

 

 

 

There are some additional insects from the same set of localities but they haven't been published yet. I'm sort of at a distance from that project now and there's been substantial turnover in research personnel so I don't know the current status of that work.

 

[kinnza1]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 10:21 AM, TyBoy said:

I dont think anyone was suggesting the collecting of vertebrate fossils the subject was around invertebrates

This ^. Vertebrate collection is not what I'm looking to do. I understand that vertebrates are 100 percent off limits in all locations I'm looking at. And, to the point of some of the other earlier posts, if invertebrate collection may still cause concern, than it's not something I have to do. My biggest question is, are there known areas that are publicly accessible for non vertebrate fossils that fall on any formations I listed above? I was perfectly happy finding fish fossils and marine invertebrates in the Kem Kem, and finding really anything from the Mesozoic of North America would be fun and interesting as well. 

[FranzBernhard]

This:

7 minutes ago, kinnza1 said:

My biggest question is, are there known areas that are publicly accessible for non vertebrate fossils that fall on any formations I listed above?

And this:

7 minutes ago, kinnza1 said:

and finding really anything from the Mesozoic of North America would be fun and interesting as well.

Aren´t there many marine formations of this age (Mesozoic) in North America? E.g. in the Cretaceous of Texas? Why sticking to the Dino-rich non-marine formations mentioned above? Is there some kind of misunderstanding?

Franz Bernhard

[kinnza1]

Just now, FranzBernhard said:

This:

And this:

Aren´t there many marine formations of this age (Mesozoic) in North America? E.g. in the Cretaceous of Texas? Why sticking to the Dino-rich non-marine formations mentioned above? Is there some kind of misunderstanding?

Franz Bernhard

I'll be taking a trip through South Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana. So I'm looking at formations I'm familiar with that cross paths with the route we're taking. Hell Creek, Lance, Morrison, they're all formations I've wanted to spend time in since I was young. And I'm not necessarily looking for marine invertebrates. Non dinosaur, non vertebrate fossils still covers many other spectrums. Now, if the formations I've referred to don't produce much, if any, nonvertebrate, then like I said taking the time to try and prospect isn't something I have to do. But it would be enjoyable to spend some time wandering these particular landscapes in search of some history.

[FranzBernhard]

@kinnza1, thanks for elaboration! Now I understand :

5 minutes ago, kinnza1 said:

they're all formations I've wanted to spend time in since I was young.

 

5 minutes ago, kinnza1 said:

But it would be enjoyable to spend some time wandering these particular landscapes in search of some history.

Why not just doing exactly this!? Wandering around in this formations and taking pictures. "Take nothing, but pictures, leave nothing, but footprints". 

There was at least one thread about such a wandering somewhere on TFF, but I don´t know where in North America.

Franz Bernhard